Kyle Shanahan

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Postby RayNAustin » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:53 am

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:If you think it was the other way around, that Shanahan carried Elway to the super bowl, and to the party afterward, that doesn't surprise me a bit


You think one had to carry the other, I have to pick, that doesn't surprise me a bit. Actually the NFL is a team game, Ray, in an ultra competitive environment. It takes a whole team to win, players and coaches. You know that and you write some good points until we get to the people you hate, and then it's tinfoil time.


I suppose math is also a conspiracy theory? Perhaps you should get you some aluminum foil ... tin is much too expensive. :wink:

Here's the thing ... "hate" is a very strong word, which is a felling I reserve for evil people. Incompetence does not qualify for the hate. And I really don't ever recall actually saying that I hate Shanahan ... I don't actually like him too much ... but I don't hate him. He may be a fine fellow.

And there is no big mystery as to what drives my line of reasoning really .. it's not hate, and it has nothing to do with tinfoil. It's a perception and it's cause and effect and it's prediction based on the past consistent results, like Jason Campbell ... I never hated Jason ... I just wanted him to be the QB of the Cowboys or Eagles or Giants .... does that make me less of a Redskin fan Kazoo? I think it makes me a smart Redskin fan, but I'm of course biased.

But let me let you in on a little secret insight into my way of thinking ... I look at patterns ..... like drinking too much and waking up with a headache. After a few times, these two seemingly unrelated things reveal there connection ... so when I get a headache I know that one of two things have occurred ... I either drank too much last night, or I was trying to reason with you! :lol:

But seriously ... Shanahan's record in Denver was not exactly as stellar as it was presented as being .. and if you look at that string of numbers you'll see a pattern .... bad, good, average, average good .... it's very inconsistent. And in 2008, Cutler payed well enough to make it to the Pro Bowl, even though Denver finished 8-8. That's a bad sign, and not too many teams fail to break 500 when their QB plays that well.

There was a reason why Shanahan was fired you know .... you just don't fire a guy that was such a long tenured coach without due cause, and failing to break 500 with a pro bowl QB was what did Shanny in, after two previous mediocre years in 2006 and 2007.

So he finished out his last three years in denver at 500. And I'm sure there were issues that contributed to the decision ... now in his 3rd year here, we're 3-4 with a rookie QB playing LIGHTS OUT, and don't you even dare tell me that you think the Redskins would be much better than 1-6 or 2-5 right now without RG3 and what he's done.

So at the end of the day ... he's got a lousy record here, and if not for the big trade for RG3 we would most likely be looking at another year like the first 2 years only maybe even a couple of games worse due to the defense playing more poorly than they have in the last several years. And that would be moving in the wrong direction. We might still be looking at a 6-10, record this year, even with a sensational performance from the QB.

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it, until I see some reason to believe differently. Right now, this team could be 0-7 without RG3 because last year's offense would have won with this years defense.

So it looks like one step forward and two steps back, aside from trading the farm for RG3, which anyone could do?
Last edited by RayNAustin on Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Deadskins » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:58 am

RayNAustin wrote:Perhaps you've been too busy standing on your own member, which may explain all the confusion with percentages

I don't know about confusion with percentages, but if you could stand on your own member, you don't have to worry about numbers. :shock:
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Postby RayNAustin » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:03 am

Deadskins wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:Perhaps you've been too busy standing on your own member, which may explain all the confusion with percentages

I don't know about confusion with percentages, but if you could stand on your own member, you don't have to worry about numbers. :shock:


Maybe I've just exposed a secret. Fellas hide your wives and girlfriends. :lol:

But don't hide em' in the same place!

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Postby Irn-Bru » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:31 am

:lol: I did get that math totally wrong. It was a bad copy/paste job in Excel. Point conceded, and gladly conceded. :oops:

But, I'm still not convinced. As I said in my first post, I find this whole debate to be ridiculous. I don't think that seven-year stretch can be waved away, much less twisted into an assessment of it being "horrible."
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Postby butterd97 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:34 am

I keep reading all this about having a great coach and then a great qb. RGIII is an exciting young player that i think honestly can be our franchise QB for the next 10 years but the Shannys have got to get out of town. Mike is just like Gibbs was when he came back in the league, living in the past and the game passed him by. Not to mention if we do not get a new Defensive Coordinator then we are never gonna have a winning season. We can't go into every game with just hoping to out score the other team cause our D plays like it is flag football

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Postby RayNAustin » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:43 am

Irn-Bru wrote::lol: I did get that math totally wrong. It was a bad copy/paste job in Excel. Point conceded, and gladly conceded. :oops:

But, I'm still not convinced. As I said in my first post, I find this whole debate to be ridiculous. I don't think that seven-year stretch can be waved away, much less twisted into an assessment of it being "horrible."


You keep saying that, but that was not what I said. I said Shanahan's record HERE is horrible, and you are the one twisting. But if you have another adjective to describe 14 wins in 39 tries, and an 8 game losing streak at home, suit yourself ... but to me, horrible seems well suited. Sucks would work too.

I applied the mediocre label to Shanahan's record in Denver ... and that is of course a subjective opinion, but apparently one that was shared by the owner of that team who fired him, because I find it hard to believe he could have the same high opinion of him as you do, and fire him anyway.

The facts are ... aside from your failed effort to humiliate me with figures from a polish calculator ... Shanahan had two very good years, a couple of 10-6 seasons which is the minimum level for good, and the other 6 seasons were dancing on either side of 500. Any way you slice it, dice it, or spin it ... it's just so so, overall.

But everyone knows this is a "what have you done for me lately" world, and lately .. as in the last 6 years, Shanahan has been coasting on reputation rather than results, and these coaches need to be held accountable just as they will cut a player for dropping a few passes and fumbling. One expects steady progress, particularly now that virtually every player he has was hand picked by him. So there is no way of escaping culpability by blaming lack of talent.

Obviously the changes on defense have backfired, as they have regressed. His Son has had consistent difficulty locating the end zone for two years, until that one man search and rescue rookie from Baylor came in and showed him where it was located, Therefore I do not buy this business about the masterful tailoring of the offense to suit RG3, but is in fact RG3 who is covering up the flaws in Kyle's offensive approach that were plainly evident prior to this kid's arrival.

Now Shanahan has done some good things here ... I'm not denying that ... he's added some good players .. made some decent picks, and he's also screwed the pooch on several ... such as "I will stake my reputation on John Beck" which was about as bad as your math. He mishandled NcNabb big time, and Rex is Rex .... and there are several other questionable decisions on personnel like Cundiff which was another disaster everyone seemed to see coming from a mile away except this coaching staff.

As impact-full as a couple of players can be, like RG3 and Morris, you cannot discount the negative impact errors in personnel can cause, which was one of the issues with Shanahan in Denver. And I don't trust demonstrated poor judgment. Of course everyone is going to have a miss here and there, but you can't have as many as we've seen here, and I gotta wonder if that isn't partially the reason why this defense couldn't be trusted to stop the passing attack of the Tampa Breeze right now.

Moving forward, we'll just have to wait and see how things pan out for the rest of the season. But because we don't have #1 picks for the next two years, and good cover DBs don't grow on trees, and fletcher is getting old, and holes need to be filled ... personnel decisions are going to be extremely critical over the next couple of years .... glad you have unwavering trust in Shanahan's decisions ... as for me, I'm dubious.

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Postby riggofan » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:03 pm

butterd97 wrote:I keep reading all this about having a great coach and then a great qb. RGIII is an exciting young player that i think honestly can be our franchise QB for the next 10 years but the Shannys have got to get out of town. Mike is just like Gibbs was when he came back in the league, living in the past and the game passed him by. Not to mention if we do not get a new Defensive Coordinator then we are never gonna have a winning season. We can't go into every game with just hoping to out score the other team cause our D plays like it is flag football


Just threw up in my mouth. Thanks.

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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:14 pm

RayNAustin wrote:I applied the mediocre label to Shanahan's record in Denver ...


I hope he's mediocre here too. It would be nice to win another Super Bowl ... or two ...
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Postby RayNAustin » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:47 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:I applied the mediocre label to Shanahan's record in Denver ...


I hope he's mediocre here too. It would be nice to win another Super Bowl ... or two ...


That's what Shanny has been saying for 12 years. And who knows, if Elway can carry his but there, RG3 might be able to, too, after all, he does have those superman socks.

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Postby Irn-Bru » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:57 pm

RayNAustin wrote:You keep saying that, but that was not what I said. I said Shanahan's record HERE is horrible, and you are the one twisting.

Hmm. It looked to me like you were applying that to his coaching record after John Elway. But I guess the paragraph you applied "horrible" to did contain a lot of ellipses, so I can believe that you intended to apply that label to only part of it. But I certainly didn't "twist" your words any; I just failed to see the arbitrary break in one ". . ." over another.

But if you have another adjective to describe 14 wins in 39 tries, and an 8 game losing streak at home, suit yourself ... but to me, horrible seems well suited. Sucks would work too.

I would not say Shanahan's Skins tenure has been "horrible" or that he has "sucked," no.

I applied the mediocre label to Shanahan's record in Denver ... and that is of course a subjective opinion, but apparently one that was shared by the owner of that team who fired him, because I find it hard to believe he could have the same high opinion of him as you do, and fire him anyway.

"Mediocre" is easier to believe, though I disagree with it. That's not what has often been implied by those criticizing his post-Elway record.

But everyone knows this is a "what have you done for me lately" world, and lately .. as in the last 6 years, Shanahan has been coasting on reputation rather than results,

Disagree. Shanahan is positively buildling something here, and was out of football for a year between coaching stints. A "what have you done for me lately" approach taken in an overzealous fashion is how you end up with Spurrier and Zorn. I applaud Snyder's wait and see, hands off approach with Shanahan/Allen.
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Postby G0V0LS33 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:38 pm

Ok while I agree that the Shanny's need to go what keeps me thinking more about it is ... WHO ARE WO GONNA GET? I know I am bout to hear Cower blah blah blah. He is not coming here to coach. What say ye Hog Nation???
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Postby Deadskins » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:47 pm

I'd get Chucky, if Shanahan were fired, but I also wouldn't Fire Shanny just yet.
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Postby riggofan » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:51 pm

Yeah, what we really need to do is bring in yet another coach and start rebuilding yet again. Brilliant.

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Postby RayNAustin » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:23 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:Hmm. It looked to me like you were applying that to his coaching record after John Elway. But I guess the paragraph you applied "horrible" to did contain a lot of ellipses, so I can believe that you intended to apply that label to only part of it. But I certainly didn't "twist" your words any; I just failed to see the arbitrary break in one ". . ." over another.


This is exactly what I said:

Mike Shanahan's last Super Bowl was in 1998 ... that's a long time ago. And since then, his record is 105 and 98, just 7 games above 500 over 14 years. That is not "greatness" ... that is post Elway perpetual mediocrity, which includes a couple of pretty decent QBs in Jake the Snake and Cutler.

What's even more disturbing is Shanahan has had 1 winning season in the last 6 years since 2005, and is 14-24 to date with the Skins. That is dismally horrific.

I think the two time periods were clearly delineated. And, my numbers are slightly off .... Shanahan is 105 and 94 (not 98 ) over the past 13 (not 14) seasons including this year, which is 11 games (not 7) over 500, or 52% over 199 game span. This is an adequate sample size to draw conclusions from, and it is pretty much a flat 8-8 average, and pretty mediocre ...

I know you don't like that word ... but 8-8 is not what I would call bad, but it's not good either, so something less than good, which to me suggests mediocre, which is defined as "moderate quality".

Do you consider 8-8 good? If so, I think you'd be in the extreme minority.

Irn-Bru wrote:I would not say Shanahan's Skins tenure has been "horrible" or that he has "sucked," no.


So you don't think 14-25 sucks? 36% win rate is what then? Average? Good? This lands you in last place ... last place to me is not average, nor is it good, so I guess we'll just disagree because last place sucks. 3rd place sucks, just not quite as much as 4th place, but close.

Irn-Bru wrote:"Mediocre" is easier to believe, though I disagree with it. That's not what has often been implied by those criticizing his post-Elway record.


Well, I can't help what other people might imply or what your perceptions are. I can only speak for myself. But it's not a belief per se, but a personal standard.

Most people define the Jim Zorn era as horrible. His percentage was 37.5%, while Shanahan is 35.8% currently, which is apparently worse numbers wise, but better because Shanahan's name is Shanahan and not Zorn. And Zorn didn't even get to pick his coaches or players ... he had to make work what Vinny thought he should have, including Jason Campbell.

Irn-Bru wrote:Disagree. Shanahan is positively buildling something here, and was out of football for a year between coaching stints. A "what have you done for me lately" approach taken in an overzealous fashion is how you end up with Spurrier and Zorn. I applaud Snyder's wait and see, hands off approach with Shanahan/Allen.


Like I said, the jury is out ... the Redskin offense with Griffin and Morris has been really impressive ... better than many Redskin offenses over a long stretch of time. So there is certainly reason to be excited about we see on that front, and to be optimistic about the future. And I think that gives them the opportunity to compete, but that has more to do with RG3 than anything else going on. Yet, we have taken a significant step backwards on defense and that is concerning.

And I'm not blind to the fact that some key players are out of the line up and that has impacted the defense. So, it's a wait and see what happens over the next 9 games. Maybe 8-8 will look good instead of mediocre.

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Postby jmooney » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:52 pm

Well, the last time Shannahan did anything significant as a coach he had Elway as a QB. (we hear that alot)

Guess what, this QB MAY be just as good or better than Elway. What does that mean? 2 Lombardi trophies .... minimum. That'll do pig, That'll do.

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