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VetSkinsFan
One Step Away
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 7779
Location: NoVA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| fleetus wrote: | | PulpExposure wrote: | | fleetus wrote: | | Not that Scouts Inc. is the bible, but, to put this in perspective that will be easy to understand, they grade Doughty with a 58 out of 100. Right now, there are 10 safeties in the draft with grades 58 or higher. |
Two things to consider. First is those player ratings are from preseason 2007, and it's likely Doughty will be rated higher this year.
The second, and the main difference, is Doughty is rated 58/100 as an NFL player, and those safeties are rated 58/100 as draft prospects. I.e., they have Darren McFadden ranked as a 98, and the highest NFL player is ranked 95 (Peyton Manning). It's absurd to think McFadden is a better NFL player than Manning, until you realize McFadden is ranked as a draft prospect, not as an NFL player.
Completely different scales, if you look at them.
For NFL Players:
| Quote: | 100-90: Elite Player
Player demonstrates rare abilities and can create mismatches that have an obvious impact on the game ... Premier NFL player who has all the skills to consistently play at a championship level ... Rates as one of the top players in the league at his position.
89-80: Outstanding Player
Player has abilities to create mismatches versus most opponents in the NFL ... A feature player who has an impact on the outcome of the game ... Cannot be shut down by a single player and plays on a consistent level week-in and week-out.
79-70: Good Starter
Solid starter who is close to being an outstanding player ... Has few weaknesses and will usually win his individual matchup but does not dominate in every game, especially when matched up against the top players in the league.
69-60: Average Starter
A valuable roster player but is not dominant against the better players he faces on a week-to-week basis... Gives great effort and you are glad that he is on your team, but he may or may not go to the next level.
59- 50: Good Backup
A player who is on the bubble and starts only because of a deficiency at the position ... He lacks complete overall skills, and although he will battle he will hinder his team's ability to play at a championship level if he is forced to be in the starting lineup consistently over a 16-game season ... A player you don't mind having on your team but someone you are always looking to upgrade.
49-40: Below Average Backup/Core Special Teamers
Strictly a backup player who is not capable of starting ... If he is forced to start he is no more than a short-term fix ... He may make the team because of special teams contributions or experience ... A player you are always looking to upgrade as he will always be a borderline roster guy.
30: Rookie -- Post-draft
No professional tape to evaluate ... Will have a college report but will not get an NFL grade until the spring after his rookie season ... Will carry the 30 grade throughout his first NFL season.
20: Developmental Player
A player with very little film to evaluate ... A guy who might show "flashes" in the preseason but does not have any regular-season views ... He has very little experience but he has to be tracked due to his developmental potential.
10: Evaluation in Process -- Need More Information
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For Potential draftees (from a pop-up, click explanation of grades:
| Quote: | 90-100 Rare Prospect Player demonstrates rare abilities and can create mismatches that have an obvious impact on the game. Is a premier college player that has all the skill to take over a game and play at a championship level. He rates in the top 5 players in the nation at his position and is considered a first round draft prospect.
80-89 - Outstanding Prospect Player has abilities to create mismatches versus most opponents in the NFL. A feature player that has an impact on the outcome of the game. Cannot be shut down by a single player and plays on a consistent level week in and week out. He rates in the top 10 at his position and is considered a second round draft prospect.
70-79 - Solid Prospect Still a standout player at the college level that is close to being an elite player. He has no glaring weaknesses and will usually win his individual matchups, but does not dominate in every game, especially when matched up against the top players in the country. He will usually rate in the top third of players at his position and is considered a third round draft prospect.
60-69 - Good Prospect This player is an good starter that will give a solid effort week in and week out, but he is overmatched versus the better players in the nation. His weaknesses will be exposed against top competition. He is usually a prospect that is missing something from his game. For example, he has the size and skills to be an outstanding prospect, but lacks the speed. He will usually rate in the top half of the players at his position and is considered a middle round draft choice.
50-59 - Adequate Prospect These are usually players that play at a high level in college, but lack some measurables or skills to play at that same level in the NFL. He may be a player that has a lot of developmental qualities, or could be a player that will contribute right away on special teams or in a situational capacity. He will usually rate in the second-third at his position and is considered a fifth round draft choice.
21-49 - Borderline Draft Prospect These are players that teams like something about, but certainly do not have the full package in terms of NFL talent. A lot of times, teams will take chances on character players or developmental type athletes with this grade. And often, these are players that come from smaller schools or did not standout at the college level. NFL teams are looking for 'diamonds in the rough' with this type of prospect. He will usually rate in the bottom third of players at his position and will be considered a late round draft choice or un-drafted free agent.
20 - Free Agent Prospect These are players that did not make our original 'evaluation list' but are prospects that need to be monitored. Especially in the pre-season, these players will fluctuate up and down depending on performance in their final year of eligibility.
10 - Not a legitimate Prospect These are players that lack NFL measurables and/or skills. They are players that we feel would not even make a solid contribution as a training camp body.
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Apples & oranges, Fleetus. |
Duly noted. I still believe that the original point remains the same. Doughty is not locked in as starter. And the Skins will draft a safety or sign a free agent to compete for that job. I believe Kenoy Kennedy is a free agent right now and there will surely be some available after the draft and June 1st. |
Competition is always good, but Cooley's endorsing Doughty in his 20 questions on his site. I take Cooley's word over the arm chair GMs.
edit: wow, I can't believe I spelled "site" wrong...... 
Last edited by VetSkinsFan on Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Countertrey
the 'mudge
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 12771
Location: Curmudgeon Corner, Maine
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Competition is always good, but Cooley's endorsing Doughty in his 20 questions on his sight. I take Cooley's word over the arm chair GMs.
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Concur. Cooley goes against Doughty daily in practice. Who would know more about the team's strong safety than the same team's world class Tight End? Cooley is not known for hyperbole. If he says it, I think it's worth considering. Doughty is going to surprise. |
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PulpExposure
Pushing Paper
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 4461
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: |
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From the WaPo this morning:
| Quote: | The Redskins, however, are considered thin at safety. Landry and Reed Doughty, who just completed his second season, performed well down the stretch after Sean Taylor's death, and scouts and league executives continue to be impressed with Doughty's development.
"There's guys like Doughty starting for teams all over the league," one personnel executive said. "We like that guy. He could come start for us."
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Yay for another unnamed source! |
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GSPODS
Hog
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 4983
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| PulpExposure wrote: | From the WaPo this morning:
| Quote: | The Redskins, however, are considered thin at safety. Landry and Reed Doughty, who just completed his second season, performed well down the stretch after Sean Taylor's death, and scouts and league executives continue to be impressed with Doughty's development.
"There's guys like Doughty starting for teams all over the league," one personnel executive said. "We like that guy. He could come start for us."
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Yay for another unnamed source! |
Being that the only personnel executives loitering around Redskins Park a few days before the draft are the Redskins personnel executives, I am going to safely assume either the quote is from a Redskins executive, or that yet again this is pure bull.
The Redskins are "considered" thin at safety? No, the Redskins are actually thin at safety. There is no consideration.
"Scouts and league executives continue to be impressed with Doughty's development." Yes, the Redskins scouts and league executives. Since Doughty is not yet even a ERFA, why would any other team be scouting him the week before the draft?
"There's guys like Doughty starting for teams all over the league."
Really? How many other 6th round backup strong safeties are starting in the NFL? All over the league, my ass.
If it looks like bull, smells like bull, and reads like bull ... |
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PulpExposure
Pushing Paper
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| GSPODS wrote: | "There's guys like Doughty starting for teams all over the league."
Really? How many other 6th round backup strong safeties are starting in the NFL? All over the league, my ass.
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Not to interrupt your rant, but I'd thought I'd look.
And that unnamed source is absolutely right. Low-round starting SS are pretty common (I used the depth charts from NFL.com).
Baltimore starts Dawan Landry, who was a 5th round pick.
Carolina starts Chris Harris, who was a 6th round pick (of the Bears).
Chicago starts Brandon McGowan, who was an undrafted free agent.
Denver starts Hamza Abdullah, who was a 7th round pick (of the Bucs).
Green Bay starts Atari Bigby, who was an undrafted free agent.
Houston starts CC Brown, who was a 6th round pick.
Jacksonville starts Gerald Sensabaugh, who was a 5th round pick.
Miami starts Yeremiah Bell, who was a 6th round pick.
New England starts Rodney Harrison, who was a 5th round pick.
New York Giants start Sammy Knight, who was an undrafted free agent.
Philadelphia starts Quintin Mikell, who was an undrafted free agent.
San Diego starts Clinton Hart, who was an undrafted NFL Europe refugee.
Tampa Bay starts Jermaine Phillips, who was a 5th round pick.
Washington starts Reed Doughty, who was a 6th round pick.
All told, 14 teams start a SS who was drafted in the 5th, 6th, 7th rounds, or undrafted. |
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GSPODS
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Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 4983
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| PulpExposure wrote: | | GSPODS wrote: | "There's guys like Doughty starting for teams all over the league."
Really? How many other 6th round backup strong safeties are starting in the NFL? All over the league, my ass.
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Not to interrupt your rant, but I'd thought I'd look.
And that unnamed source is absolutely right. Low-round starting SS are pretty common (I used the depth charts from NFL.com).
Baltimore starts Dawan Landry, who was a 5th round pick.
Carolina starts Chris Harris, who was a 6th round pick (of the Bears).
Chicago starts Brandon McGowan, who was an undrafted free agent.
Denver starts Hamza Abdullah, who was a 7th round pick (of the Bucs).
Green Bay starts Atari Bigby, who was an undrafted free agent.
Houston starts CC Brown, who was a 6th round pick.
Jacksonville starts Gerald Sensabaugh, who was a 5th round pick.
Miami starts Yeremiah Bell, who was a 6th round pick.
New England starts Rodney Harrison, who was a 5th round pick.
New York Giants start Sammy Knight, who was an undrafted free agent.
Philadelphia starts Quintin Mikell, who was an undrafted free agent.
San Diego starts Clinton Hart, who was an undrafted NFL Europe refugee.
Tampa Bay starts Jermaine Phillips, who was a 5th round pick.
Washington starts Reed Doughty, who was a 6th round pick.
All told, 14 teams start a SS who was drafted in the 5th, 6th, 7th rounds, or undrafted. |
I don't mind your interrupting my rant. And you make a fair point. But let's eliminate anyone who has more than two years experience, in the interest of the statement.
The point I'm making with this rant is that anyone with any football knowledge and a subscription to Stats, Inc. could have written this crap. Where is the "inside information?" someone who loiters around Redskins Park all day and night should supposedly be able to obtain? |
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yupchagee
#14
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 4112
Location: Louisville KY
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Countertrey wrote: | | Quote: | Competition is always good, but Cooley's endorsing Doughty in his 20 questions on his sight. I take Cooley's word over the arm chair GMs.
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Concur. Cooley goes against Doughty daily in practice. Who would know more about the team's strong safety than the same team's world class Tight End? Cooley is not known for hyperbole. If he says it, I think it's worth considering. Doughty is going to surprise. |
150% agree. I think I said the same thing in anither thread. |
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PulpExposure
Pushing Paper
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 4461
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| GSPODS wrote: | | The point I'm making with this rant is that anyone with any football knowledge and a subscription to Stats, Inc. could have written this crap. Where is the "inside information?" someone who loiters around Redskins Park all day and night should supposedly be able to obtain? |
I totally agree. I hate how they rely on unnamed sources, it drives me crazy. It's not as if they're dealing with a criminal investigation and need to protect their sources from retaliation. |
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fleetus
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Joined: 25 Apr 2004
Posts: 1757
Location: Charlottesville, Va.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Unnamed sources usually indicates a complete lack of credibility. If there were any credibility, they'd likely say, "the Titans Director of Scouting said"... Just like Mort has unnamed sources (probably named Drew Rosenhaus) telling him about blockbuster trade offers for Chad Johnson.
As for Doughty, I like him, think he's a good player and hope he becomes a Pro-Bowler. BUT, I think the Skins will want some quality depth at safety since they currently have two guys with approx. 12-16 games starting experience apiece. So, I think a veteran, a draft pick or both will be brought in to compete with Doughty. Competition is good at any position. It makes good layers better. |
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fleetus
Hog
Joined: 25 Apr 2004
Posts: 1757
Location: Charlottesville, Va.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Unnamed sources usually indicates a complete lack of credibility. If there were any credibility, they'd likely say, "the Titans Director of Scouting said"... Just like Mort has unnamed sources (probably named Drew Rosenhaus) telling him about blockbuster trade offers for Chad Johnson.
As for Doughty, I like him, think he's a good player and hope he becomes a Pro-Bowler. BUT, I think the Skins will want some quality depth at safety since they currently have two guys with approx. 12-16 games starting experience apiece. So, I think a veteran, a draft pick or both will be brought in to compete with Doughty. Competition is good at any position. It makes good layers better. |
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fleetus
Hog
Joined: 25 Apr 2004
Posts: 1757
Location: Charlottesville, Va.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Unnamed sources usually indicates a complete lack of credibility. If there were any credibility, they'd likely say, "the Titans Director of Scouting said"... Just like Mort has unnamed sources (probably named Drew Rosenhaus) telling him about blockbuster trade offers for Chad Johnson.
As for Doughty, I like him, think he's a good player and hope he becomes a Pro-Bowler. BUT, I think the Skins will want some quality depth at safety since they currently have two guys with approx. 12-16 games starting experience apiece. So, I think a veteran, a draft pick or both will be brought in to compete with Doughty. Competition is good at any position. It makes good layers better. |
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Paralis
Hog
Joined: 28 Dec 2005
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| fleetus wrote: | | Unnamed sources usually indicates a complete lack of credibility. If there were any credibility, they'd likely say, "the Titans Director of Scouting said"... Just like Mort has unnamed sources (probably named Drew Rosenhaus) telling him about blockbuster trade offers for Chad Johnson. |
Any employee of any NFL team making any such comment about any employee under contract to any other NFL team is tampering, which subjects both the employee and the team to league-imposed discipline. Sources on free agency are unnamed because they have to be--because if they put they put their names in the press, they'd have to start buying their tickets to the games like the rest of us. It's not lazy journalism, it's the way the league is run.
(whether the sources can be trusted, etc. is another matter entirely, but the fact that they're anonymous isn't an indictment of anything) |
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Countertrey
the 'mudge
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 12771
Location: Curmudgeon Corner, Maine
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| fleetus wrote: | Unnamed sources usually indicates a complete lack of credibility. If there were any credibility, they'd likely say, "the Titans Director of Scouting said"... Just like Mort has unnamed sources (probably named Drew Rosenhaus) telling him about blockbuster trade offers for Chad Johnson.
As for Doughty, I like him, think he's a good player and hope he becomes a Pro-Bowler. BUT, I think the Skins will want some quality depth at safety since they currently have two guys with approx. 12-16 games starting experience apiece. So, I think a veteran, a draft pick or both will be brought in to compete with Doughty. Competition is good at any position. It makes good layers better. |
1: Mort, for once in his life, actually had an accurate scoop. Marvin Lewis conceded that the trade offer was, in fact, made. Apparently, Mort actually has a legit unnamed source. It's also clear that stupidity is alive and well at Redskins Park. Ugh!
2: No one disputes that there is a lack of quality depth at Safety. I am hoping for that to be remedied very quickly. You are absolutely right... competition for positions makes everyone better. |
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PulpExposure
Pushing Paper
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 4461
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| Paralis wrote: | | fleetus wrote: | | Unnamed sources usually indicates a complete lack of credibility. If there were any credibility, they'd likely say, "the Titans Director of Scouting said"... Just like Mort has unnamed sources (probably named Drew Rosenhaus) telling him about blockbuster trade offers for Chad Johnson. |
Any employee of any NFL team making any such comment about any employee under contract to any other NFL team is tampering, which subjects both the employee and the team to league-imposed discipline. Sources on free agency are unnamed because they have to be--because if they put they put their names in the press, they'd have to start buying their tickets to the games like the rest of us. It's not lazy journalism, it's the way the league is run. |
That's not right. You can comment on another player under contract with a team, you just cannot contact a player on another team. That's tampering, which is what the Niners got smacked with over Lance Briggs.
For example, remember this article which details Bill Parcells talking about Jon Jansen? It was while he was a head coach of the Cowboys. |
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GSPODS
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Posts: 4983
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Let's be clear about the NFL definiton of tampering: Any contact with a player under contract with another NFL franchise or any contact with a player's agent inquiring about a player under contract with another franchise is considered tampering.
Contact with the ownership or management of the NFL franchise holding the player contract is allowed.
The agent aspect is critical because Drew Rosenhaus represents not only Chad Johnson but also several current and former Redskins players.
Any inside information passed between the agent and the player under contract or the team inquiring about the player under contract is not only tampering but can also cause the agent to lose his NFL license. In addition, that form of tampering is a legal ethics violation and grounds for censure and possible disbarment for judicial misconduct.
That part of things is what the rumor relates to, although I doubt there is any concrete evidence of tampering in any form. It sounded from Marvin Lewis' comments as though the Redskins contacted the Bengals Ownership or Management office. |
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