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SkinsJock
08 Champ
Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 11504
Location: New England
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:17 am Post subject: |
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Thank you all very much - that was about as informative as I have read. We are very fortunate to have such insight available.
Football 101 indeed!
I am actually very humbled - for my 400th! |
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Schlereth
newbie
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 18
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Coryell's offense is often tied to the WCO - but I think that's inaccurate. Anybody can see the difference between the Walsh offense and the Coryell offense. They were both "west-coast" and I think that's were the confusion started.
The Walsh offense is the WCO that most people think of - as you can see in the coaching tree above.
The Coryell is a different offense with it's own coaching tree - Turner, Gibbs, Martz, Vermeil, etc.
Most teams today run highly modified versions of either the Coryell or the Walsh offense, often with elements of both. It's almost unfair to lable offenses because they are so varied. |
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Schlereth
newbie
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 18
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a good article on the WCO from the Cardinals site:
http://www.azcardinals.com/news/news_details.html?iid=3045
Some excerpts:
| Quote: | Former San Francisco 49er Head Coach and Pro Football Hall of Famer Bill Walsh is most often mentioned in the same breath when detailing the ancestry of the West Coast Offense. Walsh cultivated his football acumen at the knees of three legendary football minds—Marv Levy (Cal-Berkeley), John Ralston (Stanford), and Al Davis (Oakland Raiders).
After three years with Levy and Ralston and two with Davis and the Raiders—where among his offensive lineage was the innovations of Sid Gillman—Walsh was hired by Paul Brown with the expansion Cincinnati Bengals in 1968. |
| Quote: | During training camp the following year in 1970, Cook suffered a shoulder injury which would effectively end his career, and in stepped Virgil Carter—thirty pounds lighter and three inches shorter than Cook and with an accurate passing arm but nowhere near the strength of his predecessor.
Back to the drawing board for the coaching staff.
Carter was known more for his mobility and ability to pass on the run as well as run the ball—265 yards and four touchdowns rushing as a rookie with the Bears in 1968—so Brown, Walsh and staff devised a game plan to take advantage of those assets. They deviated from the vertical game of Cook and instead implemented an offense based on timing, motion, and shorter pass patterns. |
A couple thoughts:
- A semi-myth that surrounds the WCO is that the quarterbacks don't have strong arms. It was designed to compensate for weak arms - as you can see above - but ideally the QB would still have a strong arm. The best WCO quarterbacks today - Farve, McNabb, Vick, Plummer?, etc. have strong arms.
- The real keys to the WCO quarterback are mobility and accuracy. Accuracy especially on the run. McNabb for example is not known as an accurate pocket-passer. But on the run, he is more accurate than most quarterbacks. When I watch classic 49er games with Montana - he was often dealing with a moving pocket and making awkward throws. |
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Deadskins
JSPB22
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 14695
Location: Location, LOCATION!
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Schlereth wrote: | Here is a good article on the WCO from the Cardinals site:
http://www.azcardinals.com/news/news_details.html?iid=3045
Some excerpts:
| Quote: | Former San Francisco 49er Head Coach and Pro Football Hall of Famer Bill Walsh is most often mentioned in the same breath when detailing the ancestry of the West Coast Offense. Walsh cultivated his football acumen at the knees of three legendary football minds—Marv Levy (Cal-Berkeley), John Ralston (Stanford), and Al Davis (Oakland Raiders).
After three years with Levy and Ralston and two with Davis and the Raiders—where among his offensive lineage was the innovations of Sid Gillman—Walsh was hired by Paul Brown with the expansion Cincinnati Bengals in 1968. |
| Quote: | During training camp the following year in 1970, Cook suffered a shoulder injury which would effectively end his career, and in stepped Virgil Carter—thirty pounds lighter and three inches shorter than Cook and with an accurate passing arm but nowhere near the strength of his predecessor.
Back to the drawing board for the coaching staff.
Carter was known more for his mobility and ability to pass on the run as well as run the ball—265 yards and four touchdowns rushing as a rookie with the Bears in 1968—so Brown, Walsh and staff devised a game plan to take advantage of those assets. They deviated from the vertical game of Cook and instead implemented an offense based on timing, motion, and shorter pass patterns. |
A couple thoughts:
- A semi-myth that surrounds the WCO is that the quarterbacks don't have strong arms. It was designed to compensate for weak arms - as you can see above - but ideally the QB would still have a strong arm. The best WCO quarterbacks today - Farve, McNabb, Vick, Plummer?, etc. have strong arms.
- The real keys to the WCO quarterback are mobility and accuracy. Accuracy especially on the run. McNabb for example is not known as an accurate pocket-passer. But on the run, he is more accurate than most quarterbacks. When I watch classic 49er games with Montana - he was often dealing with a moving pocket and making awkward throws. |
It is all timing, though. The QB is counting in his head, and the ball needs to be delivered to different spots on the field for different times. |
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JansenFan
and Jackson
Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 8909
Location: Charles Town, WV
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:00 am Post subject: |
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From vincelombardi.com....
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2. Paul Brown
Brown was the mastermind behind two great NFL franchises; he got the Cleveland Browns going in 1946 in the AAFC, and took control of he expansion Bengals in 1968. Along the way, Brown's Browns won four AAFC titles and then three NFL championships when they became part of the league in 1950. In 17 years as the head coach of the Browns, he had only one losing season, compiling a 167-53-8 record. Then in eight seasons as head coach of the Bengals, he led the team to three playoff berths. His final NFL coaching record, beginning in 1950, was 166-100-6.
Brown was more than a winner: he was gutsy, signing two black players, Marion Motley and Bill Willis, to play for the Browns in 1946. He also taught Bill Walsh the key ingredients of the West Coast offense, which he'd employed successfully with Otto Graham at QB in the 1940s and 1950s. |
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welch
Skins History Buff
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4665
Location: New York, NY
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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This thread deserves to surface, since we have been discussing Zorn, the creation of the WCO, Walsh, Gibbs, and Coryell in Hog Wash.
Just checked the links provided by RiC and they no longer work. Ah, well. That's Internet-time for you.
One, I remember, had a drawing of a tree that showed Walsh descending from Paul Brown's line. |
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BigRedskinDaddy
Hog
Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 505
Location: Hemet CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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This is a little late to be arriving at the party, but I came across this on another board and thought it might help those looking for "The Beginning of Everything."
Cheers.
PS: The tree itself is hard to view, but if you're willing to take some time moving around it there is some VERY good info in there.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/vlad3060/31114739.jpg |
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Countertrey
the 'mudge
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 12765
Location: Curmudgeon Corner, Maine
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| BigRedskinDaddy wrote: | This is a little late to be arriving at the party, but I came across this on another board and thought it might help those looking for "The Beginning of Everything."
Cheers.
PS: The tree itself is hard to view, but if you're willing to take some time moving around it there is some VERY good info in there.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/vlad3060/31114739.jpg |
The chart was facinating. |
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Deadskins
JSPB22
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 14695
Location: Location, LOCATION!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Countertrey wrote: | | BigRedskinDaddy wrote: | This is a little late to be arriving at the party, but I came across this on another board and thought it might help those looking for "The Beginning of Everything."
Cheers.
PS: The tree itself is hard to view, but if you're willing to take some time moving around it there is some VERY good info in there.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/vlad3060/31114739.jpg |
The chart was facinating. |
It all goes back to either Paul Brown or Sid Gillman. |
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welch
Skins History Buff
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4665
Location: New York, NY
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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It seems to me that this chart is slightly off:
- George Allen should link back to George Halas
- Several of the coaches shown connected to Allen are offensive coaches. Old George hated the offense; I think his main contribution to Marchibroda was to say "don't do anything fancy".
- Missing Lombardi and Landry
- Missing our old friend "Toot", aka Otto Graham, who ran Paul Brown's passing offense with Jurgensen, Mitchell, Smith, and Taylor. A passing attack that would destroy defenses even today. |
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BigRedskinDaddy
Hog
Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 505
Location: Hemet CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: |
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welch, I hadn't considered your points.
-But you're absolutely right.
Damn, now I've gotta go back and look through that whole thing again to check it for accuracy. My eyes can't take it lol... |
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welch
Skins History Buff
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4665
Location: New York, NY
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:14 am Post subject: |
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BRD, there was a tree that showed the offensive "lineage". Unfortunately, the link doesn't work. Oh well.
It would be interesting to see a defensive coaching tree. It would, as far back as my memory goes, show a NY Giants branch (Landry, for instance), and a Bears branch (Allen).
Someplace in 101, I linked to an article on "what would have happened" if the NFL champion Bears had played the AFL champion Chiefs.
The article described Halas and Allen's defensive innovations, such as switching formations during the snap-count. It's an interestig read, although it has been pushed far down the 101 stack. |
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Irn-Bru
FanFromAnnapolis
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 10623
Location: on the bandwagon
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BigRedskinDaddy
Hog
Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 505
Location: Hemet CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: |
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Irn-Bru, thx for the link, that was good stuff. Unfortunately, the original article link no longer works. 
Can anyone answer why the hypothetical SB matchup for me? Was it the Bears D vs. Gillman's O = unstoppable force vs. immovable object type thing? |
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welch
Skins History Buff
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4665
Location: New York, NY
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| BRD, that was it. Also that the Chargers defense was not shabby, either. |
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