Luck?

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Luck?

Postby crazyhorse1 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:25 am

Andrew Luck's completion percentage is 54%, his average gain as a passer under 7 yards per, his RAT at 75, 18 interceptions! Those are Grossman numbers. Those aren't the kind of numbers a ROY nominee should have. His team has been a shock and he's had a hand in a number of come-from-behind wins, but still--ROW! ridiculous. He'd be considered a near-bust if the Colts weren't resurgent. Both Russell Wilson and RG3 have indisputably proven they are better quarterbacks than Luck at his point. The award is not about a team's record while a given quarterback is at the helm (as a most valuable player award might be). It's about who's the best rookie in the NFL. RG3 IS THE BETTER PLAYER, AS THE STATS PROVE, beating out Wilson and Alfred Morris. Forget Luck's total yardage--it's a product of the Colts throwing on almost every play, not of his proficiency. Both Griffin and Russell project higher passing yardage if they had thrown as much as Luck and both are obviously his superior at running the ball, interception avoidance, and ball handling.

I have nothing against Luck personally, but I do see red when I see him compared to Griffin and Russell favorably in any area. He doesn't belong in the same conversation with even Morris.

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Postby Deadskins » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:25 am

If you go solely by the numbers, RGIII has no peers. He should be in the MVP conversation, not just ROY. Wilson is definitely a great surprise, but his numbers still don't match up to RGIII's. If not for RGIII, this team would have folded up after starting 3-6. He changed the entire mindset in DC. If that's not MVP, I don't know what is. Give Peyton Manning comeback player of the year, but the Broncos played in the AFC championship game last year with Tim Tebow. He's played great, but MVP? No way. Tom Brady is certainly a viable candidate, but they also have a great team around him, and he can't be considered the more integral cog to his team's success than RGIII. Really, the only player I see that should be in the MVP race against RGIII is JJ Watt, but there again, the team's success on offense shows that he is simply having a stellar season, on a very good team. The Redskins have beaten 8 teams (the Smeagols twice) on sheer determination alone. Most games we have to outscore our opponent, because the defense has been decimated by injury and suspension. Heck, even the defensive players, are giving that extra level of effort because of RGIII. RGIII for MVP!
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Postby HEROHAMO » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:49 am

I think RG3 is the best of all the rookie QBs. Probably the most dynamic of all Qbs. RG3 benefits from a well designed offense that utilizes his skills best.

I put RG3 ahead of Luck not by much though. Luck has had a very good rookie season as well. I would say Luck has as much to work with as RG3 has. RG3 and Luck both have weapons on offense with a mediocre defense.

Russel Wilson on the other hand has the best team of all three. He has a lights out defense to fall back on as well as a well known runningback in Lynch. If you ask me Wilson is just a wannabe RG3. Carroll and staff just copied what Shanahan is doing and are now running a very similar offense to ours. I watched Seattle early in the year and there offense was different. Now they are running an offense like ours.

I also think Wilson is a little full of himself. If you watched the fail mary game. After the game Wilson acted like nothing went wrong on that play. As if it was a clean TD. That just rubbed me the wrong way. I think if that happened to a QB like Aaron Rogers or another Vet they would have called it what it was. A messed up call that was unfortunate.
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Postby DarthMonk » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:14 am

My vote for ROTY would be for GrIIIf but I will briefly play devil's advocate.

Luck has a weak D and a weak running game. Seattle is very strong in both areas and the 'Skins run very well. Thus, Luck is asked to throw a lot more in worse down-and-distance situations. Nevertheless, he has led 7 4th-quarter comebacks. This is a career for some guys.

OK, I'm done. My vote goes to GrIIIf.

PS - I've often used and heard the argument for MVP that asks "Which team would lose the most without this guy?" In other words, who is the most VALUABLE to his team. Luck would get many votes with this litmus test. There is another twist to this idea though. Ask who is the most valuable to the LEAGUE. After all, he's called the League MVP, right?

Although the head-hunters and a lot of refs don't treat him this way I say GrIIIf is right there for League MVP. He's sold the most jerseys. He lights up the TV. He brings out the fans in every city who chant his name when their team is losing to us. I say GrIIIf is both ROTY and MVP.

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Postby Deadskins » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:40 am

Another consideration is strength of schedule. The fact that the Colts have had to come from behind so many times is a sign of weakness, not strength.
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Postby DarthMonk » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:45 am

It's an interesting exercise to argue for the guy you don't want. It ultimately either changes your mind or strengthens your original position.

Why is Luck the right choice? Go for it.
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Postby Deadskins » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:46 am

Um, he was the #1 overall pick? That's it, I'm done. :lol:
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Postby emoses14 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:36 am

Please pardon the interruption:

Denver (8-8) didn't make it to the AFC championship last year with their stellar D and wishbone offense. The AFC championship was between the Ravens and the Patriots. All Denver did was get by Pittsburgh on an incredibly lucky play that didn't feature their starting safety (who would have been covering on the play) because he has sickle cell trait. Then they got pasted by a real team with a real quarterback.

OK back to the Luck/ROY/MVP discussion
So Pey-Pey is good for an additional 5 wins (they'll beat KC) (coincidentally, that's the same number of additional wins that Griffin will be responsible for after we paste the Ttit) and he came back from the WORST INJURY EVER YOU GUYS!!! That's why they're talking about him for MVP (and because he's the NFL's other golden boy so, of course). I agree they are the better team with respect to MVP and so that should count against Pey-Pey.

However, speaking of Comeback Player, there's no way in hell he wins Comeback player of the year over Adrian Peterson. Pey-Pey throws the ball and ducks under sacks, protecting his neck. He is quite possibly the wimpiest great QB ever. AP runs through people, around them and away from them and has done so since September 9. That's 8.5 months after having his MCL and ACL torn up against us. Sorry, this is not even a contest, Comeback Player of the Year is AP and has been for the balance of the season.

I agree that Griffin is definitely the ROY (despite what he has to say about it) and should be in the running for MVP, quite seriously. I think he's got an easy case to be made there (clear leader of team that was LOST, more so than anyone else's team was prior to this year, has completely taken the league by storm, setting records, leading the league in QB statistical categories, etc. But we all know that the MVP isn't going to be a rookie, isn't going to a rookie playing for DC and is going to be one of the NFL's golden boys (Pey-Pey or Tom Brady). So we might as well prepare ourselves to be annoyed by that.
Last edited by emoses14 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Deadskins » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:54 am

emoses14 wrote:But we all know that the MVP isn't going to be a rookie, isn't going to a rookie playing for DC and is going to be one of the NFL's golden boys (Pey-Pey or Tom Brady). So we might as well prepare ourselves to be annoyed by that.

Totally agree.
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Postby aswas71788 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:00 am

I am a firm believer that RGIII deserves to be the ROY for this year. Somthing that has to be faatored in though is the NFL's continuing grudge agains the Redskins. There is a certain percentage that will vote against RGIII just because he is a Redskin and vote for Luck just to spite the Redskins. It is not fair but it is the way it is. RGIII has done more than was ever expected of him, which was monumental to begin with.

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Postby DarthMonk » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:32 am

emoses14 wrote:However, speaking of Comeback Player, there's no way in hell he wins Comeback player of the year over Adrian Peterson. Pey-Pey throws the ball and ducks under sacks, protecting his neck. He is quite possibly the wimpiest great QB ever. AP runs through people, around them and away from them and has done so since September 9. That's 8.5 months after having his MCL and ACL torn up against us. Sorry, this is not even a contest, Comeback Player of the Year is AP and has been for the balance of the season.


^ This

emoses14 wrote:I agree that Griffin is definitely the ROY (despite what he has to say about it) and should be in the running for MVP, quite seriously.


You know I agree as posted earlier.

emoses14 wrote: I think he's got an easy case to be made there (clear leader of team that was LOST, more so than anyone else's team was prior to this year, has completely taken the league by storm, setting records, leading the league in QB statistical categories, etc.


Not bad.

emoses14 wrote:But we all know that the MVP isn't going to be a rookie, isn't going to a rookie playing for DC and is going to be one of the NFL's golden boys (Pey-Pey or Tom Brady). So we might as well prepare ourselves to be annoyed by that.


Pretty much.

Gotta ask. Could race play a role?
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Postby PAPDOG67 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:51 am

Not taking anything away from Luck, but the Colts have had one of the easiest schedules in the history of the NFL this year. Their opponents comined winning % this season to date .423.

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Postby emoses14 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:51 am

DarthMonk wrote:
emoses14 wrote:But we all know that the MVP isn't going to be a rookie, isn't going to a rookie playing for DC and is going to be one of the NFL's golden boys (Pey-Pey or Tom Brady). So we might as well prepare ourselves to be annoyed by that.


Pretty much.

Gotta ask. Could race play a role?


I don't think so. I hope not. With a quarterback like Griffin, where it is imminently obvious that he doesn't fall into any typically designated "running" (as a euphemism for "black") QB box, I think the kinds of subconscious racial undertones that might sway thoughts (or might have swayed them in the past) will be largely dismissed. Here, my reference to golden boy QBs was not intended to connote blond haired or white, but rather the league's darlings. I do think those racial undertones might be there for someone who inspires in the powers that be's minds (both subconsciously and consciously) a more traditional notion of being a "running" QB (like a vick) who also carries some degree of negative aspect that the league at large wouldn't want their image wrapped up in. Griffin just doesn't present this way on or off the field, so no, I don't think race will have anything to do with his candidacy. Rather, it will be the same problem that anyone over 50 tends to have when thinking of a restaurant to go to for dinner when faced with the same place they always go, with the one meal just they way they've come to like it vs. trying something new. Brady and Pey-pey are PF Chang's. Griffin is that new restaurant that has a 3 star Michelin rating in its first year that you've never been to, but everyone is raving about.
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Postby PAPDOG67 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:51 am

Not taking anything away from Luck, but the Colts have had one of the easiest schedules in the history of the NFL this year. Their opponents comined winning % this season to date .423.

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Postby DarthMonk » Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:25 pm

emoses14 wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:
emoses14 wrote:But we all know that the MVP isn't going to be a rookie, isn't going to a rookie playing for DC and is going to be one of the NFL's golden boys (Pey-Pey or Tom Brady). So we might as well prepare ourselves to be annoyed by that.


Pretty much.

Gotta ask. Could race play a role?


I don't think so. I hope not. With a quarterback like Griffin, where it is imminently obvious that he doesn't fall into any typically designated "running" (as a euphemism for "black") QB box, I think the kinds of subconscious racial undertones that might sway thoughts (or might have swayed them in the past) will be largely dismissed. Here, my reference to golden boy QBs was not intended to connote blond haired or white, but rather the league's darlings. I do think those racial undertones might be there for someone who inspires in the powers that be's minds (both subconsciously and consciously) a more traditional notion of being a "running" QB (like a vick) who also carries some degree of negative aspect that the league at large wouldn't want their image wrapped up in. Griffin just doesn't present this way on or off the field, so no, I don't think race will have anything to do with his candidacy. Rather, it will be the same problem that anyone over 50 tends to have when thinking of a restaurant to go to for dinner when faced with the same place they always go, with the one meal just they way they've come to like it vs. trying something new. Brady and Pey-pey are PF Chang's. Griffin is that new restaurant that has a 3 star Michelin rating in its first year that you've never been to, but everyone is raving about.


A thoughtful reply.

I think the times you include subconscious are important. I think there is a lot more there than most people realize or are willing to admit. Of course, I could be wrong and I don't want to derail the discussion but part of a thread is the meandering. Anyway, I see a transcendent (at least so far) Gr-III-f vs everyone else in both ROTY and MVP.
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