Incompleteness of roster remodeling explains 3-6 record

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Postby Deadskins » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:59 am

RayNAustin wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
DaSkinz Baby wrote:Example the Colts look at them last year versus this year.

Please! The Colts situation has already been discussed. Last year was an aberration because they didn't have Manning. Other than last season, their worst record over the last five seasons was 10-6. This is hardly a rebuilding team. Add to that, they play in the AFC South (12 games against AFC opponents), the emotional lift from playing for a coach sidelined with Leukemia, our injuries to key players on defense, and the Mara cap hit, and the comparison is ludicrous.


That's just not true at all ... the Colts CLEANED HOUSE at the end of last season ... players, coaches, and the front office! They did everything but take the horseshoe off their helmets ... and all the analysts were in agreement about how much better a situation RG3 was going to have with the Redskins, than Luck was going to have with the Colts who were just beginning a full scale rebuild this year.

Wow Ray, I can't believe you're using "the analysts" to back your argument. Those are the same analysts who also say Shanny is a great coach, and that Luck is the more pro-ready QB. And you totally ignored the other three factors I pointed to for the disparity in records between the teams. I tend to agree with a lot of your points, but to fire a coach mid-season is not something The Danny should do again. Our only remaining game where we might not have a real chance of winning is against the Ravens, and with Ray Lewis out, I'm not even sure about that one. You have to let this season play out before making any coaching changes. I've never been a fan of Shanahan's, but I'm willing to stay the course for now.
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Postby Kilmer72 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:14 pm

The one thing the Shans did do though was got us younger. We have to give credit there. Our offense works to a degree. I also agree firing the Shans is a bit premature. Like many times before Ray makes sense. I just think it would send a really bad message to prospective coaches to get rid of him this soon. I really think we are stuck with all of our coaches for a year and a half. I wish that things would come together so we wouldn't have to. I am not blind. I see we still have major problems. I guess I just want to go down with a fight rather than rebuild again.

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Postby ACW » Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:56 pm

Deadskins wrote:The Danny should do again. Our only remaining game where we might not have a real chance of winning is against the Ravens, and with Ray Lewis out, I'm not even sure about that one. You have to let this season play out before making any coaching changes. I've never been a fan of Shanahan's, but I'm willing to stay the course for now.
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Postby Red_One43 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:23 pm

Deadskins wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:Talk about their inspired play for their coach? Well that is definitely an indictment againt Shanny and Haz because you are saying that the Skins D cannot get inpired by their coaches and the fact that they now have an offense.

:roll: If you can't see the difference, then you are blind.


Whether there is a difference or not, your argument doesn't fly.

The Colts didn't find out about their coach unit week 5 for the Packers game. By then they had already beaten the Vikes who would later play the Redskins. The Colts D gave up 327 yards and 20 points and our D gave up 421 and 26 points. By the time the Colts got "inspired" they weren't giving up 400 yards a game in offense. They didn't allow the like of Amendola 12 first half catches before making an adjustment.

And BTW, if it was all about inspiration, how did they turn around and lose to the Jets 35- 9 the following week against the Pack.

The Point is - there are several teams (pural) that handle defensive personnel and schemes better than Shananhan and Haz (See Shany's record the last few years in Denver). This so evident, there is no need to provide datat to back it up. These guys have had three years to show that we are moving in the right direction - I didn't say win a championship - just move in the right direction. I appreciate the good that they have done and don't advocate any firings, but what they have done to this defense stinks and the record and stats scream at you to stop making excuses for them and face the facts that teams such as the Colts are doing better with the little that they have. Blind? Really? Take a look a the 2010 Redskin D vs 2012 Redskin D stats.

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Postby RayNAustin » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:37 pm

Deadskins wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
DaSkinz Baby wrote:Example the Colts look at them last year versus this year.

Please! The Colts situation has already been discussed. Last year was an aberration because they didn't have Manning. Other than last season, their worst record over the last five seasons was 10-6. This is hardly a rebuilding team. Add to that, they play in the AFC South (12 games against AFC opponents), the emotional lift from playing for a coach sidelined with Leukemia, our injuries to key players on defense, and the Mara cap hit, and the comparison is ludicrous.


That's just not true at all ... the Colts CLEANED HOUSE at the end of last season ... players, coaches, and the front office! They did everything but take the horseshoe off their helmets ... and all the analysts were in agreement about how much better a situation RG3 was going to have with the Redskins, than Luck was going to have with the Colts who were just beginning a full scale rebuild this year.

Wow Ray, I can't believe you're using "the analysts" to back your argument. Those are the same analysts who also say Shanny is a great coach, and that Luck is the more pro-ready QB. And you totally ignored the other three factors I pointed to for the disparity in records between the teams. I tend to agree with a lot of your points, but to fire a coach mid-season is not something The Danny should do again. Our only remaining game where we might not have a real chance of winning is against the Ravens, and with Ray Lewis out, I'm not even sure about that one. You have to let this season play out before making any coaching changes. I've never been a fan of Shanahan's, but I'm willing to stay the course for now.


Look, I understand that you represent the more popular opinion here, and and that makes mine the odd opinion out, and subject to ridicule. That's fine .. I'm used to it ... and I'm also used to being right more often than not, in the final equation. And I'm right this time for sure .. because what is happening now, happened in year 1 and year 2 and has not changed at all for the better.

So now let me explain you why I REALLY feel the way I do .... it's a matter of principles, and honesty and integrity and personal responsibility, and standing for something ..... things that used to be considered all important qualities because you are quite frankly NOTHING without these things. Unfortunately, these qualities are no longer high on people's lists of important considerations these days, and you can see it everywhere .. not just football.

The point is ... Shanahan is a fraud, and an average coach at best. But he doesn't possess an ounce of integrity, nor should anyone place an ounce of trust in him, which is cause enough to send him packing. And to compound the problem, he's arrogant without having anything to be arrogant about. And I've made that point clear in the past, citing numerous examples that prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. This second interview with Shanahan after the post game "throw in the towel" presser, is just the most recent demonstration ... but it was so revealing as to who this man really is, it should remove any semblance of doubt for even the most stubborn or dense.

He opens the discussion by chastising the reporters for taking his remarks out of context and instructs them to call him next time before they make such unfair criticisms. Now, just who does this guy think he is anyway? These reporters don't work for Mike Shanahan, nor are they under any obligation to check with him before reporting on statements he makes, that were most certainly NOT taken out of context. We all heard what the man said, and my jaw dropped as he was saying it, so screw him and this backtracking damage control double talk. He stuck both feet in his mouth, saw the headlines in the press the next day, and the universal criticism that he surely deserved for saying what he said. Virtually everyone around the NFL came to the same exact conclusions, because there was no other conclusion to reach. That he would backtrack the next day is totally disingenuous, but is unfortunately consistent with Shanahan's past behavior. This man can't even take responsibility for his own comments, so while blaming the players for the failure on the field, he's now blaming the reporters for what transpires in the press conferences afterward? I find that infuriating and absurd. And I don't care for someone who not only demands such reverence, but expects it, and is indignant if he doesn't receive it. His routine was like the kid that stands there with the lid off the cookie jar ... face covered in chocolate, who swears he didn't take the cookies. He deserves a double spanking .. one for stealing the cookies, and another for lying about it.

A man of integrity would have said something like "Hey .. l want to clarify my comments after the game Sunday. I would first like to apologize to the players, coaches, fans and owner for my comments that indicated that I was conceding the season lost. This was a poor choice of words after an emotionally tough loss, and a lapse brought about by the frustration and disappointment of the moment. And I understand the harsh criticisms, and accept full responsibility for creating that perception, but let me assure you all, I am conceding nothing, nor is this how I expect my coaches and players to approach the final 7 games of this season. We're not out of it yet, and we will lay it all on the line, just as we do every game. And that includes me".

But that's not what he did ... he did exactly the same thing he did in 2010, with that "Cardiovascular Endurance" BS story about why he made the dreadful decision to replace McNabb with Grossman for the last drive of that game. Everyone knew that was a BS story, and it revealed an important and unflattering aspect of Shanahan's character, which he continues to demonstrate. That being a complete unwillingness to accept responsibility or even consider the idea that he could somehow be in error about anything. And if you can't admit a problem, you can't possibly fix it, which is why we keep seeing the same problems persist.

Now, just as important as the character and integrity issue is for the head coach of a team to set as an example for everyone else ... the equally damaging aspect of his comments came as a direct threat and indictment of the players by saying "for the remainder of the season, we'll see who are going to be Redskins in the years ahead" .... clearly assigning blame to the players and suggesting that continued failure will result in more personnel changes at the end of the year ... which has been the only consistent trademark of the Shanahan regime so far, other than disappointing results! The classic "the beatings will continue until morale improves" approach.

The overall point here is that there is a clear unwillingness on Shanahan's part to critically evaluate his own and his coaching staff's performance which was also clearly demonstrated in that presser when he told the reporter ... "you'll have to ask the owner if he thinks we're heading in the right direction ... I KNOW WE ARE". And just go back and look at that again, and observe Shanahan's face and body language, which clearly showed outrage and contempt for a reporter having the nerve to question his highness. What a ego maniac this guy is!! The most logical follow up question that wasn't dare asked was, "how are you so certain of this, coach"? Because from all outward appearances, it looks like the team is regressing, and in danger of finishing the season with a worse record than the previous two. Are we to assume this confidence in direction is similar to your confidence in John Beck, Coach? And your "I'll stake my reputation on him" declaration? We all know how that worked out, don't we? So, he said it .... "I'll stake my reputation on John Beck" .. so are we not allowed to hold him to those words either? Are we simply to allow Shanahan to revise history and reality at his sole discretion, whenever he finds it most convenient, and we must then just blindly accept the latest revision as the truth?

Here's my point ... setting aside all of Shanahan's arrogance and hubris, we haven't seen actual evidence of this "progress". What I see is a lot of lip service about how the team is so much improved over the "trash talent" he inherited when he got here, yet that "trash" that he got rid of was marginally more successful under an inexperienced rookie coach, than what we see now from Batman and the Boy Wonder ... not a whole lot mind you .. but slightly more successful.

Contrast that to what happened when Joe Gibbs came back in 2004. He retooled the team, and made the playoffs in the second year, while Shanahan is halfway through his third season, and we're regressing. And Gibbs made some major mistakes in personnel too ... we saw a major fall off in the defense in 2006, caused in part by the gross error of allowing our middle linebacker and QB of the defense leave and go to the Giants, and a switch to Al Saunders offensive system that your offensive QB, Jason Campbell (another of Joe's errors) couldn't get a handle on. I mention this just to illustrate the major impact personnel changes and bad decisions can cause .. and it doesn't take many of them to reap disastrous results.

And let me remind everyone, that when Zorn took over in 2008, the Redskins started the season at 6-2, and everyone was shocked. But, injuries to the offensive line and Clinton Portis caught up with them, and Jason couldn't carry the load. He needed everything to function optimally in order to be successful, and as soon as Portis was no longer reeling off 100+ yard games on the ground, the offense hit a brick wall, and the team crashed in flames. Replace Jason Campbell with a guy like RG3, and I contend that Zorn would have finished 2008 at 10-6 or better, rather than 8-8. And it wasn't his fault ... he didn't choose Jason Campbell ... Jason Campbell was Zorn's albatross and undoing.

In the final analysis, this is what I see as so OBVIOUS that I cannot believe so many others fail to see it. Nobody was suggesting that Jim Zorn be "given time" to be successful. He was expected to be successful day one .. and he actually was, until things began to unravel due to injuries and an incompetent QB. Zorn's second year was marked by the same failures that killed an otherwise excellent first half of the 2008 season ... a poor, limping o-line, and a QB that was clueless. So he was summarily stripped of play calling duties, and an offensive coordinator was jammed down his throat ... the Bingo Guy. He was then run out of town on a rail .. in favor of the great Mike Shanahan, who has proceeded to actually do worse, with better talent that Shanahan hand selected, including a QB like RG3 for which Jason Campbell is not qualified to park his car.

So I don't see the reasonableness or the logic in this rather blatant double standard, with people calling for the public execution of Zorn by the end of his first year, year and a half ... for failing to be successful playing someone else's hand with a clueless QB and a broken Clinton Portis ... while Shanahan gets a pass for failing to be successful with the hand he personally chose, including a phenomenal QB like RG3, and a remarkable RB like Alfred Morris.

But that's because I'm just dumb. :roll: :roll:

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Postby Red_One43 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:52 pm

TimSkin wrote:We need to just stop making excuses buckle down and start KICKING SOME A$$!!!


Your statement above is all I am saying when bringing up the Colts. I agree 100% with you. Stop making excuses. I get that Shanny wants one defense and that he thinks that they need to learn that D like the back of their hand, but Shanny needs to recognize that in the meantime, some of these guys just don't fit the scheme and he needs to adjust some things until he gets is players.

Here's why the chances are slim that Shanny will allow Haz to make the adjustments. He once traded for a QB that had the skills to make his offense be what he wanted it to be, but that QB needed the Offense to be simplified to fit what he had always done in his career. Shanny woun't budge. He was willing to watch the team lose game after game rather than make the adjustments and give into the player. Why?

It wasn't because Shanny never fits the scheme to a player. He has done that with RGIII.

Why? Shanny has a plan for the long run. Get the players to fit the scheme - don't change the scheme unless he trusts the player (Elway is one he trusted. RGIII is another)

Shanny on the Redskin D:

Shanny is dead set on getting a D like the Steeler D of the Super Bowl glory. Shanny thinks it takes years of repetition to get where the Steelers are. He said on his show that the Steelers D is good because it has played the same D for 20 years. Shanny is only in year 3 of his. He won't change on this one because he wants the players who will be here in the future to know this D like the back of their hands.

Our only hope is he tells Haz to simplifiy the D.

John Keim reported that a Steeler official told him that Haz's version of the Steeler D is much more complicated than the Steelers. I posted this article on another thread about the defense.

Often when players are constantly thinking about their assignments, they make mistakes - simple mistakes like tackling and being out in the flats.

For those who continue to say that the D cannot be simplified read Keim's article - if you don't believe Keim then Oh well. I didn't have to read Keim's article to know this. I heard Tony Romo, in the his first game against Haz, he had never seen stuff like that before. If Haz has the right players, he is a genius, but who ever lasts long enough to get the right players. The Steelers organization does - not the coaches.

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Postby Red_One43 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:14 pm

RayNAustin wrote:So I don't see the reasonableness or the logic in this rather blatant double standard, with people calling for the public execution of Zorn by the end of his first year, year and a half ... for failing to be successful playing someone else's hand with a clueless QB and a broken Clinton Portis ... while Shanahan gets a pass for failing to be successful with the hand he personally chose, including a phenomenal QB like RG3, and a remarkable RB like Alfred Morris.

But that's because I'm just dumb. :roll: :roll:




One of the reasons one doesn't fire Shanahan and one fires Zorn is, Zorn is not guaranteed $7 million dollars for 5 years. Danny fires Shanny at the end of the season and he owes him $14 million. You wrote earlier to hire Jon Gruden (I think that would be a huge mistake - two coaches coming from teams that had gone downhill, from their Super bowl years, in their last few years with the team - no thank you!!!!. Gruden is going to cost how much a year? Add that to Shanny's salary that is owed and you get Shanny here at least one more year.

The other reason, he doesn't fire Shanny is he has a very good resume and that often gets one more chances than one who doesn't have a good resume such as Jim Zorn.

You provide a lot of solid evidence to support your argument, but we will have Shanny for at least another year. Our only hope that he will wake up and realize that what he is doing is not working. If not, then look for a repeat of this in year 4.

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Postby Deadskins » Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:48 pm

RayNAustin wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
DaSkinz Baby wrote:Example the Colts look at them last year versus this year.

Please! The Colts situation has already been discussed. Last year was an aberration because they didn't have Manning. Other than last season, their worst record over the last five seasons was 10-6. This is hardly a rebuilding team. Add to that, they play in the AFC South (12 games against AFC opponents), the emotional lift from playing for a coach sidelined with Leukemia, our injuries to key players on defense, and the Mara cap hit, and the comparison is ludicrous.


That's just not true at all ... the Colts CLEANED HOUSE at the end of last season ... players, coaches, and the front office! They did everything but take the horseshoe off their helmets ... and all the analysts were in agreement about how much better a situation RG3 was going to have with the Redskins, than Luck was going to have with the Colts who were just beginning a full scale rebuild this year.

Wow Ray, I can't believe you're using "the analysts" to back your argument. Those are the same analysts who also say Shanny is a great coach, and that Luck is the more pro-ready QB. And you totally ignored the other three factors I pointed to for the disparity in records between the teams. I tend to agree with a lot of your points, but to fire a coach mid-season is not something The Danny should do again. Our only remaining game where we might not have a real chance of winning is against the Ravens, and with Ray Lewis out, I'm not even sure about that one. You have to let this season play out before making any coaching changes. I've never been a fan of Shanahan's, but I'm willing to stay the course for now.


Look, I understand that you represent the more popular opinion here, and and that makes mine the odd opinion out, and subject to ridicule. That's fine .. I'm used to it ... and I'm also used to being right more often than not, in the final equation. And I'm right this time for sure .. because what is happening now, happened in year 1 and year 2 and has not changed at all for the better.

First, I happen to agree with you about Mike not being a great coach, and living off the success of his Elway Broncos, so don't make it out like I'm taking anyone's side against you. Second, you always make it out as if you are being ridiculed for your opinions, which I don't see at all. Sure Kazoo rails on you, but I've never put much stock in anything he has to say on any number of subjects. I happen to disagree that the Colts are a valid comparison to the Redskins, and that any coach should be fired mid-season. It's just the wrong move as an owner, and something The Danny does not need to do again, especially if he wants to get a good coach in the future for this franchise. I say, let the season play out, and see if we can't win some of these imminently winnable games we have left on our schedule.
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Postby The Hogster » Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:49 pm

Maybe I'm cranky, but I'm getting annoyed reading the word 'Shanny' Until he wins with us, he doesn't deserve an abbreviation, nickname or whatever.

He's just Mike
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Postby Deadskins » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:00 pm

RayNAustin wrote:So I don't see the reasonableness or the logic in this rather blatant double standard, with people calling for the public execution of Zorn by the end of his first year, year and a half

Please go back and show me a single post on this site by anyone calling for Zorn to be fired.
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Postby Deadskins » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:01 pm

The Hogster wrote:Maybe I'm cranky, but I'm getting annoyed reading the word 'Shanny' Until he wins with us, he doesn't deserve an abbreviation, nickname or whatever.

He's just Mike

I don't think it's a complimentary nickname. :roll:
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Postby The Hogster » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:08 pm

Deadskins wrote:
The Hogster wrote:Maybe I'm cranky, but I'm getting annoyed reading the word 'Shanny' Until he wins with us, he doesn't deserve an abbreviation, nickname or whatever.

He's just Mike

I don't think it's a complimentary nickname. :roll:


Who cares. It sounds lame.
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Postby SkinsJock » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:29 pm

[quote="RayNAustin"]So now let me explain you why I REALLY feel the way I do .... it's a matter of principles, and honesty and integrity and personal responsibility, and standing for something ..... things that used to be considered all important qualities because you are quite frankly NOTHING without these things. /[quote]

UNFORTUNATELY Ray - Of the 'qualities' you deem so important. please give us just 1 - I repeat one (1) that we all would agree Dan Snyder has - JUST ONE

Get out of here

DONE - BOM - roasted

Mike got Snyder to step aside and Mike & Bruce brought in RG3

he gets to be the HC for the rest of this season

don't make a fool of yourself



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Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:47 am

:celebrate:

BOM!!!!!!
:rock:


....Roasted.
#21 forever in our hearts
...and yet ANOTHER record setting performance by "RG3 the third"!!!!
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Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:58 am

:celebrate:

BOM!!!!!!
:rock:


....Roasted.
#21 forever in our hearts
...and yet ANOTHER record setting performance by "RG3 the third"!!!!
“I wanted to just… put his lights out ….because, you know, …Dallas sucks…” - Dexter Manley

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