Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

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Re: Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

Postby SkinsJock » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:29 am

riggofan wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:the point is that there are some Native Americans that feel the name should be changed and they are trying to make a bigger issue of it by pulling the 'discriminatory' card - there are more Native Americans that do not feel it is a derogatory term but their opinions don't seem to matter to those that feel it is


Glad to know you have your finger so firmly on the pulse of Native Americans. lol.

That liberal lion John McCain seems to disagree with your assessment btw:

“We have many local tribes in my state of Arizona, and they come to me and tell me its offensive,” McCain said, via USA Today. “So if its offensive, then why don’t we take that into consideration? One of the most darkest chapters in American history is our relations with the Native Americans. When an advanced civilization collides with a less advanced one, really terrible things happen. And it’s probably the worst chapter in American history, as we went west and became the nation that we are, we really did some terrible things. And many of our Native Americans are very sensitive because of our history.

“So my view, if I were the owner of the team, I’d call them together and have a dialogue with them and I would probably change the name.”


Apparently he actually speaks to Native Americans btw. I'm curious to know how many you have spoken with.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... gton-name/


are you kidding me - you can't make a point that the majority does not count and then claim there may be a majority that wants the name changed

AND

what the hell difference does it make that I (or any other fan who does not think the name should be changed) have not had the opportunity to discuss the issue with Native Americans

get off your high horse

The issue of changing the name of the DC franchise is not, in my very unimportant view, supported by the majority of Native Americans

OR

by most NFL fans

fact is there is a lot of noise from the people that think the name should be changed but very little is heard from the majority of Native Americans and NFL fans that do not think the term is derogatory

I hope, if and when Snyder sells the team, he makes sure the franchise is in the hands of another person or group that feels the same as most of us do :moon:
The Redskins need to have a plan for how to put a product on the field that will be consistently competitive and they need to stick with that plan - it's taken years to become as bad as we are and it will be years getting out of it

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Re: Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

Postby SkinsJock » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:33 am

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
riggofan wrote:
Deadskins wrote:Um no. It's like calling a politician a do nothing blowhard, because he's setting up a straw man so that he can look like he cares about Indians.


This is why there will never be a real discussion about the Redskins name. Its all complaining about people's motives, never really addressing what they're saying. Too bad.


OK, let's discuss motives.

Offending Indians or anyone else is not our motive as Redskins fans and it's not the motive of the Redskins organization
.

Discussion over....


I wish it were - like the old saying goes ... you can lead the horse to water ... :lol:
The Redskins need to have a plan for how to put a product on the field that will be consistently competitive and they need to stick with that plan - it's taken years to become as bad as we are and it will be years getting out of it

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Re: Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

Postby riggofan » Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:28 pm

SkinsJock wrote:are you kidding me - you can't make a point that the majority does not count and then claim there may be a majority that wants the name changed


I didn't claim any such thing (unless you believe that I am secretly John McCain).

I don't have any clue what the majority of Native Americans think.
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Re: Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

Postby riggofan » Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:36 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:OK, let's discuss motives.

Offending Indians or anyone else is not our motive as Redskins fans and it's not the motive of the Redskins organization.

Discussion over....


Sweet. You should try that out sometime. Recite some NWA lyrics in front of a group of black people. I'm sure they'll be cool with your using the N word because offending them is not your motive. Let me know how it works out for you.
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Re: Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

Postby KazooSkinsFan » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:21 pm

riggofan wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:OK, let's discuss motives.

Offending Indians or anyone else is not our motive as Redskins fans and it's not the motive of the Redskins organization.

Discussion over....


Sweet. You should try that out sometime. Recite some NWA lyrics in front of a group of black people. I'm sure they'll be cool with your using the N word because offending them is not your motive. Let me know how it works out for you.


What a stupid post on so many levels
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Re: Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

Postby DarthMonk » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:52 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
riggofan wrote:
This is why there will never be a real discussion about the Redskins name. Its all complaining about people's motives, never really addressing what they're saying. Too bad.


OK, let's discuss motives.

Offending Indians or anyone else is not our motive as Redskins fans and it's not the motive of the Redskins organization
.

Discussion over....




Just trying to clarify. It appears riggo was noting that there is a lot of complaining about motives as opposed to requesting we discuss them.

:hmm:
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Re: Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

Postby yupchagee » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:03 pm

riggofan wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:are you kidding me - you can't make a point that the majority does not count and then claim there may be a majority that wants the name changed

I didn't claim any such thing (unless you believe that I am secretly John McCain).

I don't have any clue what the majority of Native Americans think.


A recent poll (Pew I think) found that 90% of Native Americans were fine with the name, in fact a disproportionate % are Redskins fans BECAUSE OF THE NAME.
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Re: Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

Postby riggofan » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:12 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
riggofan wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:OK, let's discuss motives.

Offending Indians or anyone else is not our motive as Redskins fans and it's not the motive of the Redskins organization.

Discussion over....


Sweet. You should try that out sometime. Recite some NWA lyrics in front of a group of black people. I'm sure they'll be cool with your using the N word because offending them is not your motive. Let me know how it works out for you.


What a stupid post on so many levels


Ah yes. If only I could rise to intellectual heights of "We're not trying to offend anyone with our racial slur of a name, so therefore its ok". I'll try harder.
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Re: Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

Postby riggofan » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:23 pm

Btw I totally know that these posts piss off my fellow fans, and I apologize. That's not really my point.

What I'd personally like to see from both fans and Snyder/Allen is: 1) Quit pretending like your opponents are all just nuts who don't have at least a few valid points. Sorry but there are some legit arguments against the name whether you like it or not. And 2) quit trying to defend the indefensible. There are real problems with the word Redskin, I don't care how much you spin it or try to defend it. (It was Reagan who said "If you're explaining, you're losing." Yeah?)

Anyway, I'd like to see the team be able to keep its name somehow. If the current attitude of Snyder and a lot of fans is all we have to offer though, I'm not optimistic.
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Re: Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

Postby Deadskins » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:23 pm

riggofan wrote:"We're not trying to offend anyone with our racial slur of a name, so therefore its ok".

Can you please explain to me again why "Redskins" is a racial slur. And don't use your "walk up to an Indian" scenario, or "the dictionary says so" explantations.
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Re: Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

Postby riggofan » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:50 pm

Deadskins wrote:
riggofan wrote:"We're not trying to offend anyone with our racial slur of a name, so therefore its ok".

Can you please explain to me again why "Redskins" is a racial slur. And don't use your "walk up to an Indian" scenario, or "the dictionary says so" explantations.


What's the point? If you're not willing to accept the dictionary definition or the ruling of the USPTO, I don't really know why you would accept anything I have to say. Are you one of these guys who refuses to believe in the possibility of global warming too no matter how many scientists offer you proof?

Anyway, I'm not going to argue about the name itself. I think that horse has been beaten to death.

This was a pretty well written article in the Atlantic though if you care to read it objectively:

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainmen ... ed/373198/
When the decade opened, liberal-minded people referred to Negroes (or to “the Negro,” as LBJ liked to say), while an unreconstructed rear guard still talked about “coloreds.” By the decade’s end, pretty much everybody was using “blacks.” Over the following decades Orientals became Asians, queers became gays, and the new terms “Latino,” “Hispanic,” and “Chicano” were added to the vocabulary. And the old word “slur” acquired a new meaning to refer to a word that conveyed an ethnic or racial insult, one whose use was not just unkind, but as a social thought crime. Not even the vocal reactions against “political correctness” in later decades called the right of self-naming into serious question. Those on the cultural right may ridicule PC ideas about race and gender, but in their public discussions they’re as fastidious as anybody else about avoiding words that are regarded as offensive or simply outmoded.

There are exceptions to that pattern, but “redskin” isn’t among them. By the 1970s, the word was widely considered as a slur. All modern dictionaries label it as offensive or disparaging, just at they do the N-word—no journalist would begin a story, “Redskin astronaut John Herrington was honored last night…” Not all Indians object to the word, it’s true. In surveys, it’s offensive to 35 to 45 percent of Indians enrolled in tribes, but far fewer among the much larger—and rapidly growing—population who self-identify as Indians, many out of a spiritual affinity or a family legend about a Cherokee princess four generations back. Whatever the exact number, it offends enough people to put it off limits as a form of address. Any white person who uses the word injudiciously to a group of Indians can count on receiving a sufficient quota of angry stares.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/us- ... story.html
The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office has refused to register trademarks containing the word “Redskins” about a dozen times since 1992 on the grounds that the term may disparage Native Americans. Among the rejected: Redskins Fanatics, Redskin Pigskins and Washington Redskins Cheerleaders. The latest to be turned down was “Redskins Hog Rinds,” which was submitted on behalf of a Capitol Heights, Md., man. In a letter from the agency in December, an examining attorney wrote that it was denied because it contained “a derogatory slang term.


I love the Redskins too, man. Its not the point.
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Re: Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

Postby KazooSkinsFan » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:53 pm

riggofan wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
riggofan wrote:Sweet. You should try that out sometime. Recite some NWA lyrics in front of a group of black people. I'm sure they'll be cool with your using the N word because offending them is not your motive. Let me know how it works out for you.


What a stupid post on so many levels


Ah yes. If only I could rise to intellectual heights of "We're not trying to offend anyone with our racial slur of a name, so therefore its ok". I'll try harder.


1) You're repeatedly taking statements, and not just the ones made by me, to ridiculous levels. Like here. And like oh, the majority are OK with the name Redskins? The majority of Germans were for killing the Jews. Hyperbole is not a good argument.

2) If Redskins is like "The N word" then why do the vast majority of Indians support the name? Why can you say Redskins and not what "the N word stands for?" Why would you support a team that is according to you the equivalent of "the N word?" Your post is full of it, you don't even believe it, you are just flaming and being ridiculous about it. That was why I just stopped at your post is just stupid, and on so many levels.
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Re: Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

Postby KazooSkinsFan » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:55 pm

DarthMonk wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
riggofan wrote:
This is why there will never be a real discussion about the Redskins name. Its all complaining about people's motives, never really addressing what they're saying. Too bad.


OK, let's discuss motives.

Offending Indians or anyone else is not our motive as Redskins fans and it's not the motive of the Redskins organization
.

Discussion over....




Just trying to clarify. It appears riggo was noting that there is a lot of complaining about motives as opposed to requesting we discuss them.

:hmm:


You're right on that, I did misread it, thanks for pointing that out.
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Re: Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

Postby KazooSkinsFan » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:00 pm

riggofan wrote:Btw I totally know that these posts piss off my fellow fans, and I apologize. That's not really my point.

What I'd personally like to see from both fans and Snyder/Allen is: 1) Quit pretending like your opponents are all just nuts who don't have at least a few valid points. Sorry but there are some legit arguments against the name whether you like it or not. And 2) quit trying to defend the indefensible. There are real problems with the word Redskin, I don't care how much you spin it or try to defend it. (It was Reagan who said "If you're explaining, you're losing." Yeah?)

Anyway, I'd like to see the team be able to keep its name somehow. If the current attitude of Snyder and a lot of fans is all we have to offer though, I'm not optimistic.


We should listen more, but not explain anything?

I'm not sure what you even think we're "explaining." Aren't we just saying it's not intended to offend anyone? What else have we "explained?"
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Re: Possible solution IF the team is forced to change name

Postby KazooSkinsFan » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:03 pm

riggofan wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
riggofan wrote:"We're not trying to offend anyone with our racial slur of a name, so therefore its ok".

Can you please explain to me again why "Redskins" is a racial slur. And don't use your "walk up to an Indian" scenario, or "the dictionary says so" explantations.


What's the point? If you're not willing to accept the dictionary definition or the ruling of the USPTO, I don't really know why you would accept anything I have to say. Are you one of these guys who refuses to believe in the possibility of global warming too no matter how many scientists offer you proof?

Anyway, I'm not going to argue about the name itself. I think that horse has been beaten to death.

This was a pretty well written article in the Atlantic though if you care to read it objectively:

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainmen ... ed/373198/
When the decade opened, liberal-minded people referred to Negroes (or to “the Negro,” as LBJ liked to say), while an unreconstructed rear guard still talked about “coloreds.” By the decade’s end, pretty much everybody was using “blacks.” Over the following decades Orientals became Asians, queers became gays, and the new terms “Latino,” “Hispanic,” and “Chicano” were added to the vocabulary. And the old word “slur” acquired a new meaning to refer to a word that conveyed an ethnic or racial insult, one whose use was not just unkind, but as a social thought crime. Not even the vocal reactions against “political correctness” in later decades called the right of self-naming into serious question. Those on the cultural right may ridicule PC ideas about race and gender, but in their public discussions they’re as fastidious as anybody else about avoiding words that are regarded as offensive or simply outmoded.

There are exceptions to that pattern, but “redskin” isn’t among them. By the 1970s, the word was widely considered as a slur. All modern dictionaries label it as offensive or disparaging, just at they do the N-word—no journalist would begin a story, “Redskin astronaut John Herrington was honored last night…” Not all Indians object to the word, it’s true. In surveys, it’s offensive to 35 to 45 percent of Indians enrolled in tribes, but far fewer among the much larger—and rapidly growing—population who self-identify as Indians, many out of a spiritual affinity or a family legend about a Cherokee princess four generations back. Whatever the exact number, it offends enough people to put it off limits as a form of address. Any white person who uses the word injudiciously to a group of Indians can count on receiving a sufficient quota of angry stares.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/us- ... story.html
The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office has refused to register trademarks containing the word “Redskins” about a dozen times since 1992 on the grounds that the term may disparage Native Americans. Among the rejected: Redskins Fanatics, Redskin Pigskins and Washington Redskins Cheerleaders. The latest to be turned down was “Redskins Hog Rinds,” which was submitted on behalf of a Capitol Heights, Md., man. In a letter from the agency in December, an examining attorney wrote that it was denied because it contained “a derogatory slang term.


I love the Redskins too, man. Its not the point.


So why are you a Redskin fan then?

The reason it is not a slur is that no offense should be taken where none is intended. No offense is intended. So...
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