Evaluate How Coaches Used RGIII vs Seattle and All Year

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Postby The Hogster » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:57 pm

Burgundy&Wha? wrote:
The Hogster wrote:
Burgundy&Wha? wrote:Was the play call on the Ngata hit a called run? I can't recall. If not, isn't the harping on the amount of running plays somewhat moot?


It was a pass play. A regular drop back play where he took off. So was the concussion play.


Doesn't that make the complaints of called runs a little off base?

Yes, I'd like to see fewer called runs next year. Sure. But if RG III sprints out of the pocket and heads downfield, we shouldn't blame the play calling if something bad happens. Of course, the media types will harp either way. :roll:


I agree. I thnk too much blame is on the coaches. We used him fine. He just needs to protect himself better. He doesn't have a knack for when to slide, get down, or get out of bounds. He's got a killer instinct that backfires on him sometimes.
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Postby Burgundy&Wha? » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:23 pm

The Hogster wrote:
Burgundy&Wha? wrote:
The Hogster wrote:
Burgundy&Wha? wrote:Was the play call on the Ngata hit a called run? I can't recall. If not, isn't the harping on the amount of running plays somewhat moot?


It was a pass play. A regular drop back play where he took off. So was the concussion play.


Doesn't that make the complaints of called runs a little off base?

Yes, I'd like to see fewer called runs next year. Sure. But if RG III sprints out of the pocket and heads downfield, we shouldn't blame the play calling if something bad happens. Of course, the media types will harp either way. :roll:


I agree. I thnk too much blame is on the coaches. We used him fine. He just needs to protect himself better. He doesn't have a knack for when to slide, get down, or get out of bounds. He's got a killer instinct that backfires on him sometimes.


You're right. And, to go against something I said above, a lot of those options/designed runs allowed for Robert to get some yards downfield WITHOUT really risking being hit. He can get some yards and SLIDE. He tends to push it to the edge, though.

What gets me, we will hear this weekend about the Wonderful Mr. Wilson and his arm and his magical running ability. No issues with him running similar plays. :roll:

Thank goodness for basketball season -- except my 'Heels are sucking it up so far. :evil:

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Postby RayNAustin » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:00 am

The Hogster wrote:The way he was used didn't get him injured. The only dumb play that put him at risk was that god awful WR Pass to Griffin where Ryan Clark laid him out. That was Kyle being a tool.

But, his concussion and his initial knee injury came on DROP BACK PLAYS where he scrambled.


This is totally unreasonable. It's like saying that last drink made you drunk, and not the previous 12 drinks before it.

Among QBs in the National Football League, RG3 ran for the most yards of any QB. and is 20th overall in yards rushing, beating out over 1/3 of the starting running backs in the NFL. 120 carries, and 815 yards. Compare that to Andrew Luck's 62 carries and 255 yards. That's 58 extra chances defenses have to clobber the crap out of RG3, and that crap takes a collective toll on the body AND the joints and ligaments.

What you seem to want to dismiss or ignore is that this type of punishment is cumulative, and it builds up over the course of a season, so it's really not about the specific play that an injury occurred, as much as it is about a numbers game, and the number of times he's exposed, and the mindset that is ingrained by running so much. The fact that defenses are really taking shots whenever they get a chance plays a part also ... he's got a target on his back.

The Hogster wrote:Even the 1st quarter pass where he tweaked his knee came on a traditional pass play.


Again, that's just not the whole story .. he was already injured, and I suspect the damage was greater than we've been told. So the injury there was a worsening of an existing injury.

The Hogster wrote:The only thing up for debate is whether he should have been pulled from the game against Seattle.


No ... not up for debate. The results speak loud and clear ... we lost him to severe injury and lost the game too, so by that measure, there is no debate ... he should have been pulled. The only debatable matter is whether Shanahan should have exercised better judgement by not continuing to play him while injured. And I say he should have known better.

The Hogster wrote:But let's say this. If you're gonna play the what if game, then what if Will Montgomery didn't snap the ball at his feet??


Totally irrelevant ... he did not injure himself on that play, that play just showed how physically compromised he was by not being able to bend over and pick up a football on the ground. But anyone who was paying attention, already knew this .... the unstable knee simply gave because of the already damaged ligaments.

The Hogster wrote:What if we strike a pass play to a WR and tie up the game 21-21 and win on an OT FG??

Then what? Is Shanahan a genius? Better yet, does Kirk Cousins start against ATL?


No .. regardless of the outcome of the game, there is no what ifs regarding the damage done. We don't know how much additional damage was caused by him playing the rest of the way on that damaged knee, and that's why players who are injured, need to come out .. so that no additional damage is done. So the right call would have been to pull him, and put Cousins in, and live with the results, win lose or draw.

The Hogster wrote:What is done is done. RGIII was probably more injured initially than was reported.


If that is true, then how can you possibly condone Shanahan playing him, and lying about the severity of his injury? That would certainly demand his firing, and League action too.

The Hogster wrote:The initial timeframe was 2-4 weeks. But, 4 weeks later, he didn't look any different than he did against the Eagles and Cowboys. Maybe it was worse than Grade 1, or maybe there was a setback along the way. A tear that worsened until it popped early in the first quarter, leading to the snap of the already repaired ACL which would have been over compensating for the lack of lateral stability.


This is likely to be the scenario, and I suspect the situation is something close to that. But here's the deal ... healing time does not mean practicing and playing on it simultaneously. You have to rest these injuries and rehab them ... not play through the pain and expect it to heal as you continue stressing the ligament. So it's likely that with each successive outing, Philly, then Dallas, and finally Seattle, that initial injury kept getting worse, until the LCL and ACL went out completely.

And, according to the surgeons I've listened to ... there was likely some damage to the ACL all along, because of how rare it is to have just LCL damage, without other damage occurring too. So that would tie back to the probability that the injury was either misdiagnosed from the start, or the severity not being revealed, or the claim that he could play without risking further injury was false, or a combination of all of that.

The Hogster wrote:There's plenty of blame to go around. But, as of right now, one thing is for sure. RGIII's knee is now structurally sound. It
is repaired.

So let's deal with the recovery.


Plenty of blame to go around, but you refuse to spread it? Let's just forget it and move on?

You and I do not have to deal with the "recovery". Neither does Shanahan, or Andrews .... Robert has to deal with the recovery, and as I understand it, it's a grueling, painful, slow process taking months of hard, painful work.

So it's not a parking ticket, and it's not just a politically incorrect slip of the tongue to be forgotten about ... it's about what went wrong with this system that miserably failed to protect this player. They had the top orthopedic surgeon in the country standing on the side lines ... a training staff, and a head coach watching this injured player continue trying to play on torn ligaments, and likely causing more damage.

Forget it and move on is an outrageous suggestion that should only be coming from the mouth of beady eyed Mike, and Doctor Dolittle, who did nothing. Why was this Doctor there on the sidelines anyway? To give Mikey an excuse so he can offload any blame on RG3 and the Doctor?

It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.

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Postby GoodOldDays » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:53 am

RayNAustin wrote:It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.


What evidence do we have to think one of the country's most well-known (and consequently wealthiest) surgeons would disregard the Hippocratic oath in order to make a few grand?

Where is the evidence he did anything wrong?

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Postby The Hogster » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:14 am

GoodOldDays wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.


What evidence do we have to think one of the country's most well-known (and consequently wealthiest) surgeons would disregard the Hippocratic oath in order to make a few grand?

Where is the evidence he did anything wrong?


Great question. Although I'll warn you. Ray has been weeping over a carton of spilled milk since last Sunday. He doesn't want to be realistic. Instead he wants everyone to join a chorus of somber weeping, blame spreading, and will eventually circulate a 'Fire Somebody' petition shortly.

Just a warning.
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Postby The Hogster » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:38 am

Ray wrote:

This is totally unreasonable. It's like saying that last drink made you drunk, and not the previous 12 drinks before it.

Among QBs in the National Football League, RG3 ran for the most yards of any QB. and is 20th overall in yards rushing, beating out over 1/3 of the starting running backs in the NFL. 120 carries, and 815 yards. Compare that to Andrew Luck's 62 carries and 255 yards. That's 58 extra chances defenses have to clobber the crap out of RG3, and that crap takes a collective toll on the body AND the joints and ligaments.

What you seem to want to dismiss or ignore is that this type of punishment is cumulative, and it builds up over the course of a season, so it's really not about the specific play that an injury occurred, as much as it is about a numbers game, and the number of times he's exposed, and the mindset that is ingrained by running so much.


SMH. This is wrong on so many levels. If you watched the Ravens game, you would know that the application of 340 lbs of torque (Haloti Ngata) against a leg whipping in the opposite direction (RGIII) is what injured Robert's LCL initially. A sprain is a tearing of ligament fibres. This was not a cumulative impact injury. That's not how the ligaments of a 22 year old work. They don't wear down just because he's running. It takes a great deal of force to tear a ligament.

RGIII's concussion was also not a cumulative impact injury. It occurred on a specific impact. Do some research on ligament tears and concussions. You don't wear your ligaments out anymore than you wear your bones out--especially at age 22. He doesn't have Osteoperosis. He has a TEAR. Tears come from an impact.

The results speak loud and clear ... we lost him to severe injury and lost the game too, so by that measure, there is no debate ... he should have been pulled. The only debatable matter is whether Shanahan should have exercised better judgement by not continuing to play him while injured. And I say he should have known better.


Hindsight is 20/20. I still don't see how your soliloquy on this site matters much to an event that occurred a week ago. Venting I guess?

On the botched snap

he did not injure himself on that play, that play just showed how physically compromised he was by not being able to bend over and pick up a football on the ground. But anyone who was paying attention, already knew this .... the unstable knee simply gave because of the already damaged ligaments.


Let me know when those MRI glasses you wear are released to the general public. I want some.

You have no clue when his ACL tore. Doctors have said it was the low snap play as evidenced by a process called reflexion (sp?). When an ACL tears, the Quad muscles release or deactivate, making the leg go dead. That happened on the low snap play, which is why he fell in a heap and couldn't even move to try and reach for the ball. But, I'll wait for my MRI glasses to come in.
how can you possibly condone Shanahan playing him, and lying about the severity of his injury? That would certainly demand his firing, and League action too.


You are far too dramatic. Some of Robert's team mates didn't even know how badly injured he was. He was clearly limping around. But, what Shanahan did was a judgment call. It was the wrong call in hindsight, but unfortunately nobody has the benefit of it until an error is made. And, No he shouldn't be fired. These knee jerk reactions (no pun intended) are typical of fans, but spell disaster for a football team. We've just built a team that can contend for a Superbowl for years and you want the Head Coach fired?? :lol: Please

Plenty of blame to go around, but you refuse to spread it?


No. I spread it among Shanahan, RGIII and whoever was checking him on the sidelines. I just refuse to cry & complain about it now.
Let's just forget it and move on?


No, don't forget it. Learn from it and yes--move on.

They had the top orthopedic surgeon in the country standing on the side lines ... a training staff, and a head coach watching this injured player continue trying to play on torn ligaments, and likely causing more damage.

Forget it and move on is an outrageous suggestion that should only be coming from the mouth of beady eyed Mike, and Doctor Dolittle, who did nothing. Why was this Doctor there on the sidelines anyway? To give Mikey an excuse so he can offload any blame on RG3 and the Doctor?


Cry me a river.

It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.


Dr. Andrews is so wealthy he's probably replaced all of his own ligaments with pure gold. He didn't do anything like this for money. His reputation is more valuable than any one client pays him. Please get a grip. You're sounding like a conspiracy theorist now. You want to hire a commission to investigate Knee Gate?? Buck up Ray. :cry: :cry:
Last edited by The Hogster on Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby GoodOldDays » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:41 am

The Hogster wrote:Great question. Although I'll warn you. Ray has been weeping over a carton of spilled milk since last Sunday. He doesn't want to be realistic. Instead he wants everyone to join a chorus of somber weeping, blame spreading, and will eventually circulate a 'Fire Somebody' petition shortly.

Just a warning.


Fair enough, lol. In my opinion almost all of the blame falls on Shanny's shoulders. He should have seen what the rest of us did - that Griffin was clearly ineffective due to the knee - and kept him on the bench after halftime. We probably still lose the game, but it would have been the best way to keep the franchise out of harm's way when he's clearly hobbled.

I will say that if Griffin was dishonest at all with coaches or trainers he needs to shoulder some of the blame as well. I love that the guy is a competitor who wants to be on the field at all times, but if his knee was worse than he let on (a huge hypothetical "if") he's putting a lot of things in jeopardy above and beyond his own career. Trainers can't help you if they don't know what is going on.

From what I've seen/read I don't think Griffin did anything wrong. I think Shanahan let his desire to win convince him to believe the player's words instead of what he was watching on the field.

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Postby The Hogster » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:05 pm

GoodOldDays wrote:
The Hogster wrote:Great question. Although I'll warn you. Ray has been weeping over a carton of spilled milk since last Sunday. He doesn't want to be realistic. Instead he wants everyone to join a chorus of somber weeping, blame spreading, and will eventually circulate a 'Fire Somebody' petition shortly.

Just a warning.


Fair enough, lol. In my opinion almost all of the blame falls on Shanny's shoulders. He should have seen what the rest of us did - that Griffin was clearly ineffective due to the knee - and kept him on the bench after halftime. We probably still lose the game, but it would have been the best way to keep the franchise out of harm's way when he's clearly hobbled.

I will say that if Griffin was dishonest at all with coaches or trainers he needs to shoulder some of the blame as well. I love that the guy is a competitor who wants to be on the field at all times, but if his knee was worse than he let on (a huge hypothetical "if") he's putting a lot of things in jeopardy above and beyond his own career. Trainers can't help you if they don't know what is going on.

From what I've seen/read I don't think Griffin did anything wrong. I think Shanahan let his desire to win convince him to believe the player's words instead of what he was watching on the field.


I agree. He was clearly hurting and ineffective. But, I can also understand why he left him in. If he thought he was just hurting, and not injured, then I can see why he would have left him in.

Everything happens for a reason. I read where Robert's father said that when Andrews got inside the knee, he could tell that the original ACL repair from 2009 was not strong enough. I'll find the article. He basically said the 2009 repair would be fine for someone who didn't play pro sports, but that Andrews basically re-did the original reconstruction, but better.

If this is true, then perhaps we fixed a problem early that would have been an ongoing problem later. I try to focus on the positives which in this case are that now we know from the best doctor in this field, that his knee is now damn near bionic. It's just a matter of rehab and recovery. And based on the RGIII we all came to know, I am confident he will get back to being better than ever.
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Postby RayNAustin » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:31 pm

GoodOldDays wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.


What evidence do we have to think one of the country's most well-known (and consequently wealthiest) surgeons would disregard the Hippocratic oath in order to make a few grand?

Where is the evidence he did anything wrong?


I'm not suggesting that the Doctor sat on the sidelines hoping to see RG3's knee get torn up, so he could make money. That would be preposterous. By the same token, spare me this ridiculous airy fairy pie in the sky "Hippocratic Oath" nonsense, which we all should know by now takes up little space in the industry known as modern medicine today.

The fact is, there is an obvious conflict of interest involved when you have the surgeon who will ultimately perform whatever surgery might be required, also serving as the authority deciding if the player's best interests would be better served by not playing. On whatever level, consciously or subconsciously, there is an unceremonious disconnect, where the Doctor is not going to be viewing the situation from the same metaphorical eyes of say ... Robert's mother or close loved one.

But don't try to sell me on this notion that the doctor is above self interests, until you show me evidence that the Good Doctor performs these procedures for free. Then, I might be willing to concede the point.

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Postby DaSkinz Baby » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:34 pm

RayNAustin wrote:
GoodOldDays wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.


What evidence do we have to think one of the country's most well-known (and consequently wealthiest) surgeons would disregard the Hippocratic oath in order to make a few grand?

Where is the evidence he did anything wrong?


I'm not suggesting that the Doctor sat on the sidelines hoping to see RG3's knee get torn up, so he could make money. That would be preposterous. By the same token, spare me this ridiculous airy fairy pie in the sky "Hippocratic Oath" nonsense, which we all should know by now takes up little space in the industry known as modern medicine today.

The fact is, there is an obvious conflict of interest involved when you have the surgeon who will ultimately perform whatever surgery might be required, also serving as the authority deciding if the player's best interests would be better served by not playing. On whatever level, consciously or subconsciously, there is an unceremonious disconnect, where the Doctor is not going to be viewing the situation from the same metaphorical eyes of say ... Robert's mother or close loved one.

But don't try to sell me on this notion that the doctor is above self interests, until you show me evidence that the Good Doctor performs these procedures for free. Then, I might be willing to concede the point.


+1

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Postby SkinsJock » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:46 pm

I'm sorry but that BS is just so wrong on a number of points ..

it's actually not 'debatable' - that is pure fantasy and almost provocative
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Postby The Hogster » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:48 pm

DaSkinz Baby wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:
GoodOldDays wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.


What evidence do we have to think one of the country's most well-known (and consequently wealthiest) surgeons would disregard the Hippocratic oath in order to make a few grand?

Where is the evidence he did anything wrong?


I'm not suggesting that the Doctor sat on the sidelines hoping to see RG3's knee get torn up, so he could make money. That would be preposterous. By the same token, spare me this ridiculous airy fairy pie in the sky "Hippocratic Oath" nonsense, which we all should know by now takes up little space in the industry known as modern medicine today.

The fact is, there is an obvious conflict of interest involved when you have the surgeon who will ultimately perform whatever surgery might be required, also serving as the authority deciding if the player's best interests would be better served by not playing. On whatever level, consciously or subconsciously, there is an unceremonious disconnect, where the Doctor is not going to be viewing the situation from the same metaphorical eyes of say ... Robert's mother or close loved one.

But don't try to sell me on this notion that the doctor is above self interests, until you show me evidence that the Good Doctor performs these procedures for free. Then, I might be willing to concede the point.


+1


So the suggestion or implication in Ray's post is that there is a conflict of interest--subconcioiusly or otherwise, that gives Dr. Andrews the incentive to perhaps allow a player a longer leash, expose him to a risk because ultimately he will get to do the surgery and make more money?

Ridiculous.

My fiance is a doctor. And, trust me, their reputations are more valuable than their ability. People don't go to the doctor who screwed up someone--especially not someone as high profile as RGIII. There are probably several Orthapedic Surgeons who can perform surgery with the same skill as Andrews. But, Andrews has the reputation and respect because of his record. I don't buy that. Especially not for a 72 year old surgeon who isn't building a practice, but whose probably making more money just for his presence on the sideline than he is for a surgery.

Hell, he was on the sideline of the BCS Championship game the day after the Skins game.
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Postby CanesSkins26 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:28 pm

In my view there were two problems:

1. The coaches called too many running plays, not enough pass plays, and used a player with elite passing skills as a running qb. 25 qb's, including scrubs like Ponder and Sanchez, attempted more passes than RGIII. Of the qbs that attempted less passes than RGIII, none played in more than 13 games. On the other hand, only Newton attempted more rushes (127 to Griffin's 120) and no other qb had more than 100. By comparison, Michael Vick has only eclipsed 120 rush attempts once in his career.

RGIII was an elite passer in college and can be in the NFL. We need to use a more traditional passing offense and limit the rushing next season, or else we're going to see the same thing as far as injury.

2. RGIII needs to learn that it's ok to throw the ball away and not always try to extend a play. His injuries came on scrambles and he has a tendency to dance around behind the line of scrimmage and try to make something happen. I appreciate that effort and competitiveness, but he took some big/awkward hits behind the line of scrimmage. Elite qbs like Brees and Brady rarely take big hits, but Griffin takes multiple big hits every game. Against the Bengals 18 plays ended with Griffin getting tackled while holding the ball. That's a month or two worth of hits for Brees or Brady. It's just not sustainable.
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Postby SkinsJock » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:43 pm

thanks Canes - you really need to move it along a bit

the offense changed a little from game 1 to game 16 ... :lol:

and it will continue to change .... don't you think?


RG3 has said that it was very hard for him at first and the Bengals game was week 3 :shock: for crying out loud

RG3 and Kyle now have a much better idea of how to run the read-option and the pistol WITHOUT taking undue risks of his getting beat up

I look for a much better offense next year as well and a lot less wear and tear on RG3

RG3 will be faster and for sure he will be a lot more 'ready' for what is happening

no worries
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Postby RayNAustin » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:28 pm

The Hogster wrote:SMH. This is wrong on so many levels. If you watched the Ravens game, you would know that the application of 340 lbs of torque (Haloti Ngata) against a leg whipping in the opposite direction (RGIII) is what injured Robert's LCL initially. A sprain is a tearing of ligament fibres. This was not a cumulative impact injury. That's not how the ligaments of a 22 year old work. They don't wear down just because he's running. It takes a great deal of force to tear a ligament.


That's not what I was suggesting, and I've got to wonder if you just want to distort my points or you don't grasp them.

I will restate the point more clearly so as to clear up your confusion. We have a player who plays at top speed with an overriding element of reckless abandon that comes with the combination of talent and competitiveness he possesses. This shows up in Robert's inclination to get every stinking yard, rather than protect himself from hits. We've already seen this COUNTLESS TIMES throughout the year. So this is an issue for which it is the responsibility of the Coaching Staff to properly manage and impress upon Robert a greater need for discretion and caution. But that's not possible when the offensive philosophy simultaneously puts him in these risky positions by design .... which has resulted in him being 20th in the NFL in rushing. Do you get that? This encourages his natural inclination for risk taking, rather than discouraging it. So it is impossible to use him as a running QB by design, while also instilling in him the importance of protecting his body ... why can you not get this?

There has been a lot of lip service regarding the need for caution, but it's clearly been nothing more than that. The concussion was supposed to serve as the "wake up call" for him to be more cautious, but we've seen how that turned out, haven't we? There was no air of caution being observed, even after the injury to his knee. He ran 6 times in the Dallas Game, and 5 times in the Seattle Game .... and astoundingly, that includes called bootleg in the 4th quarter, when the rest of the world watching thought he shouldn't even be in the game any longer!! This is the major disconnect I'm talking about, between the words and deeds of this lame brained coaching staff, having this kid run by design when it was clear that he was injured and hobbling. Does this show any semblance of the tiniest bit of caution being emphasized to Robert?

So, with that said, I will say again, the nature of how the Redskins have used RG3 all year ingrains this style of play that increases the chances for what happened to his body this year. That among the other QBs around the league, Robert is the one collapsing on the ground is not simply a case of bad luck and "stuff happens" ... it was very predictable, and many people having been warning about this potential outcome starting much earlier in the season.

You'd have to have a head made out of cinderblock to be so dense as to not understand the increased risk of injury to QBs that run as often as Robert has this year. And you have to be supremely gullible to buy this crap from Shanahan suggesting that Robert was actually safer running than sitting in the pocket. Shanahan wants you to live in an alternate universe, and you apparently want to live there.

The Hogster wrote:RGIII's concussion was also not a cumulative impact injury. It occurred on a specific impact. Do some research on ligament tears and concussions. You don't wear your ligaments out anymore than you wear your bones out--especially at age 22. He doesn't have Osteoperosis. He has a TEAR. Tears come from an impact.


It's all cumulative .. physically and psychologically. And I don't care if you "believe" this total nonsense that playing on a damaged knee does not risk further damage. That's when someone is asking you to ignore common sense, and believe their fish story. Don't do it. Use your head. The reality is, all of the punishment absorbed by the body deteriorates it's ability to cope with further punishment. Muscles in the leg help support knee ligaments, and fatigue over the course of a punishing season of violence and assault DOES ACCUMULATE and DOES increase the risk of injury. NFL players do not finish the season stronger than they started in September .. that's just an undeniable fact. You can argue that, but you'd be insanely silly to try to.

The Hogster wrote:Hindsight is 20/20. I still don't see how your soliloquy on this site matters much to an event that occurred a week ago. Venting I guess?

On the botched snap

Let me know when those MRI glasses you wear are released to the general public. I want some.

You have no clue when his ACL tore. Doctors have said it was the low snap play as evidenced by a process called reflexion. When an ACL tears, the Quad muscles release, making the leg go dead. That happened on the low snap play, which is why he fell in a heap and couldn't even move to try and reach for the ball. But, I'll wait for my MRI glasses to come in.


B A L O N E Y .... pure nonsense. That very set of symptoms occurred in the 1st Quarter, just prior to the 2nd TD pass, and the description of the most frequent causes of ACL injuries describes exactly the sequence of events that transpired on that play.

Setting aside your rhetoric and hyperbole, there is no need for Xray vision to see a pink elephant sitting in the middle of the room. Even Shanahan admits that he doesn't think the injury happened on the botched snap ... he claims that the injury happened the play before, on the sack. Of course, I also predicted that is exactly what Mikey would be combing through the film looking for. It's a much better narrative for Mike and the Doctor that Robert was injured on the next to last play, rather than playing 3 Quarters on torn ligaments.

But since the overwhelming percentage of viewers, both analysts and fans alike, clearly saw him crash to the ground in pain in the first Quarter, and the significant deterioration in his performance for the remainder of the game thereafter, common sense is all you need ... not "MRI Glasses", unless you are the only one that didn't get your pair.

Of course, pay no attention to the recently released audio of the conversation between RG3 and Trent Williams just after that 1st Q crash to the ground, in which RG3 told him that it scared the **&^ out of him, as that would not bode well in support of your favored narrative, claiming the injury occurred on the last play of Robert's day.

The Hogster wrote:You are far too dramatic. Some of Robert's team mates didn't even know how badly injured he was. He was clearly limping around. But, what Shanahan did was a judgment call. It was the wrong call in hindsight, but unfortunately nobody has the benefit of it until an error is made.


Stop it ... just stop it .... only the supremely dense require "hindsight", and for some, even that isn't enough. As for me, I was screaming at the TV in the 2nd Quarter of that game, wondering what the heck these idiots were thinking. And I was anticipating that even this three-stooges-crew of Mike, Kyle, and Doctor Do Nothing would get enough of a clue during the intermission, that once half time was over, we'd see Cousins come out to finish the game, and I was floored to see RG3 continuing on, series after miserable series, floundering and throwing uncharacteristically off target again and again. And even if the blind spot is so big that you were unable to see the pronounced gimping, you should have certainly noticed the results ... three and out, three and out, three and out .... until the Seahawks managed to whittle their way back in the game, and finally win it in the end. That Robert completed only 4 passes for about 20 yards in almost three quarters of play shouldn't have escaped the Coach's radar, or yours, because it was certainly easy for everyone else to see ... including the freaking Seahawks who must have considered Shanahan's decision to allow RG3 to flounder defenseless, pennies from heaven.

The Hogster wrote:And, No he shouldn't be fired. These knee jerk reactions (no pun intended) are typical of fans, but spell disaster for a football team. We've just built a team that can contend for a Superbowl for years and you want the Head Coach fired?? :lol: Please


Please, indeed. We acquire a franchise Quarterback after decades of not having one, and in 17 games, they managed to kill the kid, and set the organization back another year while Robert rehabilitates his broken body.

This reckless behavior in allowing your franchise savior play injured is EXACTLY the type of mentality that you and others have long complained about regarding Snyder ... the win now and hell with the future attitude. Well guess what, PAL, that's precisely what the Shanahans did with RG3 ... all the while giving lip service to the need for Robert to learn how to protect himself better ... they ran the kid into the ground, right up to his last play of the year. They did everything but wheel him out onto the field in a Burgundy & Gold wheelchair, and it was a disgusting sight ... like a punch drunk fighter being beaten on the ropes and nobody with the decency to stop it.

The most astounding aspect of this is that they wouldn't even be playing that game if it were not for Cousins, who threw the tying TD pass in the waning moments of the Ravens game, and then put up RG3 like numbers the following week in Cleveland. Not only was it a disservice to RG3 to keep playing him injured, but a slap in the face to Cousins to indirectly state that an incapacitated RG3 is still better than the alternative. Cousins has played very well in every opportunity he's had ... and you can bet that he could and probably would be the starting QB had the RG3 deal not materialized. So there was simply no reason in the world to let RG3 go down with the ship, when Cousins couldn't have fared any worse.

And that doesn't require "hindsight" .... it was clear in the 2nd Q ....more clear in the 3rd Q ... but apparently, no amount of evidence was going to be enough. No decision was going to be made, and so they let the situation deteriorate until RG3's body made the decision for them. By then, it was way too late, and the damage was done.

The Hogster wrote:No. I spread it among Shanahan, RGIII and whoever was checking him on the sidelines. I just refuse to cry & complain about it now.

No, don't forget it. Learn from it and yes--move on.


There is no learning when there is no accountability or consequences to one's actions. This is pure common sense, and doesn't take tremendous intellect to understand. And right now, what I see is exactly what I expected to see ... Shanahan refusing to accept responsibility for his poor judgement or admit a mistake. According to Mike, he was just listening to RG3 and the Doctor, so he isn't at fault, and that my boy is the signature calling card of Shanahan. The damned fact is, neither RG3 or the Doctor is in charge of who plays and doesn't play .. that is Shanahan's responsibility, and that responsibility not only includes what's best for the health of the player, but what's best for the team in that game, and in the future.

And you think this is not already a well established pattern with Mikey? Mr. Cardiovascular .... Mr. Throw in the towel in week 9 ... what's the matter ... do you have such a poor memory that you fail to recall how practiced Mike is with the selective memory ... remembers things that suit him, and forgets things that aren't helpful?

It was only 7 games ago that Mike pretty much declared the season lost ... only to backtrack on his own words when the heat was applied, claiming that everyone in the Universe got it all wrong and he made no such insinuation. Everyone is crazy, and just didn't understand what he was saying. This Guy is so egomaniacal that he can't even admit a failure to properly communicate with the media when he revises history to suit himself.

The Hogster wrote:Cry me a river.

Dr. Andrews is so wealthy he's probably replaced all of his own ligaments with pure gold. He didn't do anything like this for money. His reputation is more valuable than any one client pays him. Please get a grip. You're sounding like a conspiracy theorist now. You want to hire a commission to investigate Knee Gate?? Buck up Ray. :cry: :cry:


I would refer to it as Shana-Knee-Gate. But not so much a conspiracy, and more a cluster-%^ which goes hand in hand with the incompetence well demonstrated in the handling of their THREE previous starting QBs, including the massive miscalculation with John "I'll Stake My Reputation On Him" Beck, who was an unmitigated disaster, so much so that he made Grossman look good.

The bottom line is, no coach is perfect, and can always be second guessed on a number of decisions they make during a season. But there are some errors that fall into the category of understandable and forgivable, while others are simply not tolerable, and require accountability and carry consequences afterward.

Picking McNabb, and then having that blow up, is one thing. Staking your reputation on a John Beck is another. Suffering a poor record for two years can be tolerable when progress is measurable. But when you make such an error as to jeopardize the health of the most important player that the franchise has traded the world for, who is arguably the future of this team for the next decade and longer, this crosses the line of simple mistake and miscalculation, and lands squarely in the realm of gross incompetence. The fact that Mike Shanahan is unwilling to simply admit that he made a grave mistake ... but goes so far as to attempt to justify and rationalize that decision, tells me that he's likely to do the same thing over again, having learned nothing in the process.

That's the reason for firing him ... not that he made the mistake, but that he is likely to continue making them, including a similarly poor judgement call when deciding when RG3 has healed sufficiently to safely return to the field.

There is no evidence to suggest, nor have I any confidence that he'll demonstrate better judgement, next time around.

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